Self-Defense Action - Aftermath

[crc4]

I've come up with a written script that I've developed from studying SD law, and learning from the intelligence and knowledge of Massad Ayoob and Andrew Branca, and my own SD attorney.

This is on the homepage of my phone, a printed copy around my carry permit, and a copy over my car visor.

I'm presenting this here so you can have a such a script ready should it ever be necessary.

Is it perfect? Probably not. Is it better than what you now have on your phone or in your wallet? Probably yes.

If I make revisions (and I probably will as I gain more knowledge) they will be in this original post, not elsewhere in this thread.

I hope you find this of some value.

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Self-Defense Action - The Aftermath

The 5 Elements of a Justified SD - Innocence, Imminence, Proportionality, Avoidance, and Reasonableness.

FIRST - Call police. Give the address of where you are. Explain there's been a shooting. Medical needed for the attacker. Describe yourself as the victim. Give your description. Give a description of the attacker. Give the address again. Request medical for yourself. Stick to these facts only. Don't answer any questions from the dispatcher that do not strictly relate to the above.

1. When the police arrive, establish an active dynamic. Very briefly describe what happened to cause the shooting. "I was attacked, threatened, afraid of the three men running towards me while yelling," etc.

2. Indicate that you are the victim. "I'm the victim of an assault, and I will testify.”

3. Point out any evidence. Spent cases, dropped firearms, any edged or club-type weapons, cars, tire tracks, bullet holes anywhere, etc.

4. Point out witnesses, home security cameras, business security cameras, street light cameras, etc.

5. Now say you want to talk to an attorney. Request an attorney. Shut up until you talk to an attorney. Do not say you will meet with them after you've spoken to your attorney. Let your attorney do the talking for you.

6. Contact an attorney ASAP. If you have a Self-Defense policy, contact them ASAP. Say nothing about the SD incident to anyone—not the police, medical attendants, or relatives. Shut up. Only talk with your attorney. NEVER SPEAK TO THE MEDIA!

DO NOT LIE! -- Any lie you tell will destroy your credibility. It's fine to say "I Don't Know!" 

DO NOT ASSUME! -- State the facts only. If asked "How many shots did you fire?" The correct answer is "I Don't Know!" If you say you shot 5 times but there are six holes in the attacker, you will be nailed. The majority of gun shooters can't tell you how many rounds they fired at the range. Do you think you have the wherewithal to count the rounds during an SD action?

Also, you are not a mindreader. Don't presume to know what is in the attacker's mind. Report the facts, not what you assume is true. Your job as a SD actor is to stop the behavior, not render a diagnosis of the attacker's state of mind. Your assumptions of facts not in evidence can also drive nails into the coffin the prosecutor may wish to put you in.

Edited July 17, 2023 by crc4

[Pain103]

Not bad, as having investigated self-defense shootings I do appreciate number 1. Many people don't want to say anything initially which is ok but if I know at least a little something it helps me produce a working theory of how it occurred and allows me to picture the scene better. This is actually pretty standard practice among law enforcement, give a brief what happened, then contact attorney and give interview after a few days. I definitely don't fault anyone for getting an attorney because I would. 

 

As far as avoidance I think some people or areas believe too much into this. As long as you are somewhere lawfully you have no duty to avoid or retreat, but it does tend to help. Worked a case where the victim attempted to avoid confrontation twice by driving away. Suspect followed and went for number three and found himself on the losing end of a bullet. DA agreed to the self-defense claim and first thing that was said was something to the effect of wow he tried to leave twice, and this guy kept coming. But on the other hand, if you know certain events are going to happen or more likely to happen and you avoid putting yourself voluntarily in that situation it looks better. May not change anything about the legal outcome but probably helps the image. 

 

My personal opinion only is maybe throwing some verbal warnings in there if possible. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Pain103

[crc4]

Avoidance, while not necessary in 'Stand Your Ground' states, and certainly not required for the 'Castle Doctrine', shows that the SD actor did, where safely possible, avoid using SD except as a last resort.

That works to the benefit of the SD actor.

One fallacy is that there is a "Stand Your Ground" law. Same with the "Castle Doctrine.' There is no such thing as it falls into the category of Self-Defense and merely takes the issue of Avoidance out of the prosecution's playbook in certain states.

 

Edited: As to the "Verbal Warnings" that should be done not so much as to warn the attacker, but for the benefit of any witnesses around who heard you give warnings. Another plus for the SD actor.

Edited July 16, 2023 by crc4

[pop pop]

Very good advice, crc4. I have done a lot of study on this aspect of S D. Read several books and viewed CD's on S D subjects. I agree with most, if not all of what you posted. 

I am a member of Armed Citizens Legal Defense Net. (360-978-5200) for legal financial help should I be "forced" into a S D action to protect my family or me. I say forced because there is no cowboy in me, and I just have the great desire to avoid any situation where we may be in danger. ACLDN has a great training library, and many good benefits should you need their assistance. IMO, belonging to this group of likeminded members could be totally beneficial. 

[crc4]

I'm also an ACLDN member. Best $150 you can spend for peace of mind.

[gregintenn]

Great thread! There’s a lot to think about here. Thanks for posting it.

[TNTiger1981]

Well thought out and documented. Thank you!

[Thearmededucator]

I use the Acronym PIES for the 911 call/Initial contact. 

Position- Where are you? What are nearby visible landmarks? Where are you relative to those landmarks?

Identity- State your name and give a clear description of clothing and any other identifying marks or details.

Event- In the briefest possible terms, explain what happened. NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR DETAILS! Your explanation should be along the lines of “I was just attacked with a knife!” and whether there were multiple attackers, or if any got away. 

Send Help- Request police and paramedic assistance as quickly as possible. Have the EMTs give you a full check up. You may be unaware of injuries or heart conditions due to the adrenaline and high levels of stress.

However, in order to facilitate some discussion on the topic, I would also like to provide a counter argument to some of Ayoob's advice, because I have seen a wildly disproportionate amount of people talk themselves into legal trouble as opposed to those who talk themselves out of it. Anything said during this initial encounter are to be considered "Contemporaneous" or  an "Excited Utterance" and receive additional legal weight when compared to later statements. Any missteps here can easily set yourself up as an, at best, unreliable witness, and, at worst, a liar, which threatens your entire narrative. 

Expect to be arrested. Once the cops are there, you are in a foreign land and don't speak the language. Get one.

Why are lawyers so expensive? Because they are worth it! Think about this, "How much money would you spend to stay out of prison?"  - If you are like me, the answer is "All of it"

Instead, remember:

1) “I don't want to answer any questions until conferring with my attorney”

2)“I do not consent to search of, but not limited to: Person, Property, Home, and/or Baggage”

3) “I do not waive any Rights at this time”

 

^ Long Video (~45 minutes) but worth it