Questions for current and ex-LEOs...

[deerslayer]

Two friends are considering a career change and contemplating going into law enforcement. In many of the cop-bashing threads or the notify-or-don't-notify threads, I often see guys post that they used to be police officers. Why are there so many ex-LEOs? I know that it is an often thankless job that nobody will get rich doing, but why do so many quit? Burnout? Better opportunities? Politics/bureacracy? What advice would you give people who are considering law enforcement as a career?

[Guest JLowe]

Its a lifestyle. Some people go on to better things, some just get tired of dealing with the same old sh*t day in and day out, some just aren't cut out for it. I would tell your friends this, if they aren't ready to engage the job with everything and understand that it will be the current defining thing in their life, maybe they should look elsewhere. LEOs come from all different backgrounds, but the one thing most have in common is the willingness to stand up and face the evil of the world. Some get into LE as something they always wanted to do and find out that its really not for them, those are usually gone in 3-5 years. Tell your buddies to talk to veterans and young officers alike, they will get two different perspectives. Incidentally, I never wanted to be a LEO while growing up and was talked into it by a friend of mine who had been a officer for 15 years at the time. I love what I do, but its definitely not for everyone.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Dealing with the public is the hardest punishment on the mind and soul, if your not mentally prepared, you will never make 20!

[DaveTN]

I had a laundry list of reasons, but money was at the top. That isn’t really the case now. There are departments starting now at $40K with patrolmen making $60K; that’s not bad.

You have to be the right kind of person for the job. As you can see here, people expect cops to be perfect and want them fired if they aren’t. Sometimes you get tired of pissing with people.

You will be held to a higher standard that the President of the United States yet you will hear how cops get away with everything.

You will deal constantly with the lowest of dirt bags and it will have an effect on you.

You will help get screaming people out of cars only to find out they died later. When its kids you may have nightmares the rest of your life.

When cops retire; they die.

If you are lucky enough to train with a large department you will get some of the best training available but then have the guys on here that spent eight hours smoking and joking at an HCP class talk about how they are better trained than you.

I could go on and on….... But hey… go for it. It is a good job and cops are going to have jobs when others won’t.

The biggest suggestion that I would make would be to have a trade or a career to fall back on. Don’t waste your time going to school for criminal justice. It won’t help you get a job and isn’t required. Go to school for something you could use if you decide you don’t like being a cop, or something that an agency like the FBI could use. Accounting, Electronics, Business, etc.

What about you? What are you going to do when your two friends take you to the range and you get your feelings hurt?

[deerslayer]

What about you? What are you going to do when your two friends take you to the range and you get your feelings hurt?

LOL, fat chance.

Thanks for the replies.

[EMTRN]

I could not have said it better.

I had a laundry list of reasons, but money was at the top. That isn’t really the case now. There are departments starting now at $40K with patrolmen making $60K; that’s not bad.

You have to be the right kind of person for the job. As you can see here, people expect cops to be perfect and want them fired if they aren’t. Sometimes you get tired of pissing with people.

You will be held to a higher standard that the President of the United States yet you will hear how cops get away with everything.

You will deal constantly with the lowest of dirt bags and it will have an effect on you.

You will help get screaming people out of cars only to find out they died later. When its kids you may have nightmares the rest of your life.

When cops retire; they die.

If you are lucky enough to train with a large department you will get some of the best training available but then have the guys on here that spent eight hours smoking and joking at an HCP class talk about how they are better trained than you.

I could go on and on….... But hey… go for it. It is a good job and cops are going to have jobs when others won’t.

The biggest suggestion that I would make would be to have a trade or a career to fall back on. Don’t waste your time going to school for criminal justice. It won’t help you get a job and isn’t required. Go to school for something you could use if you decide you don’t like being a cop, or something that an agency like the FBI could use. Accounting, Electronics, Business, etc.

What about you? What are you going to do when your two friends take you to the range and you get your feelings hurt?

[E4 No More]

Complicated questions require complicated answers. The following is given neither to seek approval nor brag, but to understand the motivation. It is also not intended to be attack on good LEOs.

There was a study back in the 80's that cops go through a burn-out cycle every 5-7 years. I lasted 5.5 years in a small suburb of 1,600 resident adjoining Kansas City, Missouri.

People become police officers for many reasons. I became one because I like to help people, and it's in my personality to protect. I am the typical sheepdog. My professional conduct was guided by this question: How would I want to be treated if I was in their position?

I excelled at the position. I was trained in everything the department would allow me to do during that time, and that included becoming a certified instructor in both RADAR based speed detection devices and DWI detection/enforcement among other things. Since we had two hostage incidents within ten years, I outfitted and trained as a police sniper at my own expense while other officers outfitted and trained as an entry team at their expense. That’s remarkable considering the department paid full time officers $24k per year. I also became a member of The Metro Squad, which was a multi-jurisdictional homicide investigation unit that covered both sides of the state line.

I then got burned-out on the job.

Although I still loved the actual job of a police officer, I got fed-up with the politics and corruption that came along with it. Here are some examples:

1. I wrote a speeding ticket to a young woman who was a brand new waitress for the mayor at her local restaurant. Before I had turned the ticket in for processing, it was taken out of my ticket book and voided. That required my signature to be forged on the state form used for reporting such things.

2. The same mayor was an alcoholic who drove under the influence, but she was off-limits for enforcement purposes.

3. A lieutenant working the midnight shift was having an affair. The woman’s ex-boyfriend, (who thought the lieutenant was his friend), didn’t want to be an ex-boyfriend. While on duty and in uniform, the lieutenant lured him behind a strip mall, pulled him out of his car, slapped him around, stuck his gun in his face, and then threatened to kill him if he didn’t back off. Among obvious assault charges, that was major violations of his rights since the lieutenant was acting “Under the Color of Law†during the incident. The Chief of Police who was a 25 year friend of the lieutenant refused to do anything about the incident when it was brought to his attention.

4. I saw my judge represent his own client in his own court.

5. I proved to the Chief that a Sergeant was falsifying calibrations of the blood alcohol detection device in the favor of the police department, and the Chief did nothing about it.

There were many other things, but I think these examples give you the picture. I tried to be part of the solution and failed. I couldn’t abide being party to the problem, so I changed careers. Don’t think that this kind of thing was isolated to my department either. It goes on all over to one degree or another. I’ve talked to current and former police who report similar experiences. One even bragged about his willingness to lie under oath just to get a conviction, and he was my pastor!

If your friends can tolerate the possibility of working in this kind of environment, then they’ll likely be successful. If not, then they should find another career.

[mcurrier]

I know that it is an often thankless job that nobody will get rich doing, but why do so many quit? Burnout? Better opportunities? Politics/bureacracy?

You pretty much covered it all right there.

To add a few:

Stress

Wife/Pressure

Family

Dept./Mayor/Police Chief/President has your back less and less

etc.

Look out for #1. But don't step in #2.

[Guest Matchguy]

I stuck it out for 28 years and retired on a disability retirement with my health in the dumper so bad it took five years to get it somewhat back. At the time I retired in '93, 80% of the retirements in my department of 5,500 people were stress-related disability retirements, and two others I know of had disability retirement rates as high as 92%. In plain terms, this means that only one or two in ten can expect to reach a normal service retirement age with their health reasonably intact, or more bluntly, it's very, very, hard to get out in one piece. And the stress levels have only gotten worse since then.

This has translated, IMHO, to a serious recruiting problem all over the country. In my day the employment list was good for two years and usually had 400-500 applicants who had passed the written,oral, and physical agility tests and were ready to go to the Academy when called. For the past decade that department is lucky to have 35-40 people on the list in a state having a population in excess of thirty four million people.

So the problem isn't just high turnover, it's becoming a real manpower shortage because nobody will have the job in the first place.....and with the current trend towards backing out of retirement contracts, it will only get worse.

I guess I'm a real albatross, since retired cops are only supposed to live for five years after retirement and I've lasted 15 years. I only stayed with my outfit to retirement because under our system, my retirement transfers across to my wife when I die. If it hadn't been for that, I might have left too.

In my opinion, in larger outfits, the IBS factor is responsible for more resignations and disability retirements than any other factor. The "I" stands for Internal.

MG

Edited April 6, 2009 by Matchguy

[Guest DaG]

I often see guys post that they used to be police officers. Why are there so many ex-LEOs? I know that it is an often thankless job that nobody will get rich doing, but why do so many quit? Burnout? Better opportunities? Politics/bureacracy? What advice would you give people who are considering law enforcement as a career?

I made it 9 years before I stuck my nose into politics. Small county where one or two votes means your butt is out of a job. I was a patrol Sergeant and was topped out at $8.75 per hr. No benefits, no insurance, no nothing. I had to buy everything except for 4 complete uniforms. If I had to do it all over again, I would go to a big city dept. where there are alot of officers and different divisions. There is more room for advancement.

DaG

[Garufa]

Don't most LE agencies still have pensions? If you can stick out for 20 years without going apey then you're in you 40's more or less, still get paid, and can move onto something else.

[DaveTN]

Don't most LE agencies still have pensions? If you can stick out for 20 years without going apey then you're in you 40's more or less, still get paid, and can move onto something else.

You can't get paid right then. Most places you have to be at least 50.

Pensions will be taken away as the economy worsens; they are a thing of the past. Unfortunately I think GM and Ford workers are getting ready to find that out.

[Guest Matchguy]

No, Garufa. You're thinking of the old military retirement system. Very few police agencies have retirement systems that provide for a 20 year retirement, and if so the officer usually must have reached a certain minimum age such as 50 or 55, and the retirement is usually only around 40% of his average salary for a certain number of years. This is called a "2% per year retirement" plan. Typically, small agencies in states that do not provide for local agencies to participate in statewide retirement systems have almost nonexistent retirement plans.....and even then they're nothing to write home about.

MG

[Garufa]

Thanks for the update. I'm basing my limited knowledge on knowing just one retired OK City lawman I'm aqainted with.

I know pensions are a thing of the past for most people, but I do know that the Knox County SD "retirees" get a monthly 75% check when they retire. Don't know all the terms though.

[poak]

I've been considering a career in LE, and all the research I've been doing seems to point to larger metro depts having 25yr retirement plans (not sure the details on the payout), while only federal LE jobs are offering 20yr retirements.

[Guest justme]

Complicated questions require complicated answers. The following is given neither to seek approval nor brag, but to understand the motivation. It is also not intended to be attack on good LEOs.

There was a study back in the 80's that cops go through a burn-out cycle every 5-7 years. I lasted 5.5 years in a small suburb of 1,600 resident adjoining Kansas City, Missouri.

People become police officers for many reasons. I became one because I like to help people, and it's in my personality to protect. I am the typical sheepdog. My professional conduct was guided by this question: How would I want to be treated if I was in their position?

I excelled at the position. I was trained in everything the department would allow me to do during that time, and that included becoming a certified instructor in both RADAR based speed detection devices and DWI detection/enforcement among other things. Since we had two hostage incidents within ten years, I outfitted and trained as a police sniper at my own expense while other officers outfitted and trained as an entry team at their expense. That’s remarkable considering the department paid full time officers $24k per year. I also became a member of The Metro Squad, which was a multi-jurisdictional homicide investigation unit that covered both sides of the state line.

I then got burned-out on the job.

Although I still loved the actual job of a police officer, I got fed-up with the politics and corruption that came along with it. Here are some examples:

1. I wrote a speeding ticket to a young woman who was a brand new waitress for the mayor at her local restaurant. Before I had turned the ticket in for processing, it was taken out of my ticket book and voided. That required my signature to be forged on the state form used for reporting such things.

2. The same mayor was an alcoholic who drove under the influence, but she was off-limits for enforcement purposes.

3. A lieutenant working the midnight shift was having an affair. The woman’s ex-boyfriend, (who thought the lieutenant was his friend), didn’t want to be an ex-boyfriend. While on duty and in uniform, the lieutenant lured him behind a strip mall, pulled him out of his car, slapped him around, stuck his gun in his face, and then threatened to kill him if he didn’t back off. Among obvious assault charges, that was major violations of his rights since the lieutenant was acting “Under the Color of Law†during the incident. The Chief of Police who was a 25 year friend of the lieutenant refused to do anything about the incident when it was brought to his attention.

4. I saw my judge represent his own client in his own court.

5. I proved to the Chief that a Sergeant was falsifying calibrations of the blood alcohol detection device in the favor of the police department, and the Chief did nothing about it.

There were many other things, but I think these examples give you the picture. I tried to be part of the solution and failed. I couldn’t abide being party to the problem, so I changed careers. Don’t think that this kind of thing was isolated to my department either. It goes on all over to one degree or another. I’ve talked to current and former police who report similar experiences. One even bragged about his willingness to lie under oath just to get a conviction, and he was my pastor!

If your friends can tolerate the possibility of working in this kind of environment, then they’ll likely be successful. If not, then they should find another career.

some go into law enforcement because they really want to help people. but once that newness wears off and they are confronted with the real world of law enforcement they usually do one of two things. they either quit fairly quickly after a year or two if they make it that long or they become corrupt to some degree.

thats just like any other political office. you may go into it an honest above board person but you either turn crooked very quickly or you don't survive! if some of your fellow officers are tainted you either become tainted or you leave. you cannot stand alone in that type of situation.

Too bad you quit as an officer. you would have been one of the good ones. you have something that so many are missing these days. its called INTEGRITY.

in many cases it depends on who you are or who you know when you find yourself on the wrong end of the law. seems if you know just the right person some can get away with anything.

on the other hand if you don't know just that right person, look out.

it was common knowledge in our area that some of our finest were driving the mayor home after he got tiddley as well as possibly other city and county officials.

my opinion is no matter who it is be it the governor or president himself if they are violating the law they should be held accountable just like Joe or Jane average would be. if jane or joe gets a ticket, goes to jail or whatever their infraction calls for then so should all those who for some reason think they are above that same law we have to obey.

all those you mentioned should have been jailed for corruption

and we're supposed to believe justice is blind, hah.

[DaveTN]

Seriously… I wouldn’t plan on a retirement unless it is funded by you. (In any type job)

On a different note, another thought I had that I will add….

I see a lot of guys trying to go with small departments because they think it would be hard to get into a big department like Metro.

Aim high. Sure a little department will get your foot in the door, but a department like Metro opens a whole bunch of doors. You can go anywhere in the country you want.

[Guest JLowe]

Don't most LE agencies still have pensions? If you can stick out for 20 years without going apey then you're in you 40's more or less, still get paid, and can move onto something else.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I wish. Most require 20-25 years with age stipulations (55-62). If I continue to work on the retirement system I'm on (TN Consolidated Retirement--State of TN's plan) I can retire at 62 with almost 40 years of service, ye haw . We get screwed all the way around.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

I have 18.5 in.. still going and going and going and going.. it will never end the way I see it.

[Smith]

I think one of the most telling stats is the divorce rate among LE. My brief stint in I could tell it would be psychological, ethically, and spiritually draining for all the reason above. After being forced out of the Academy due to injury, I have almost decided there are other things better for my family. I don't think I will go back.

[mcurrier]

I was a patrol Sergeant and was topped out at $8.75 per hr. No benefits, no insurance, no nothing. I had to buy everything except for 4 complete uniforms.

$8.75.hour????? That is not enough to be risking your life for. I hope that was 35 years ago.

We started at $27,500/yr, but that was back in 1984. I don't know what they make now, but I'm sure it's not enough.

Police, Fire, Rescue, Military, Nurses, Doctors, Good Teachers - These people should be paid well in our society. They give the most. Unfortunately, almost all of these are usually paid the least.

[mcurrier]

I've been considering a career in LE, and all the research I've been doing seems to point to larger metro depts having 25yr retirement plans (not sure the details on the payout), while only federal LE jobs are offering 20yr retirements.

My sisters husband is NYC cop, 20 years this year. He was planning on retiring this year, but after looking at the numbers, gonna have to go a few more years. I'm concerned that when he gets a few more and looks at the numbers again it's going to be the same thing, and so on.

[Raoul]

Police, Fire, Rescue, Military, Nurses, Doctors, Good Teachers - These people should be paid well in our society. They give the most. Unfortunately, almost all of these are usually paid the least.

+ one on that. These are the people who do the real work down in the trenches. Most of the rest of us are just phone sanitizers.

[mcurrier]

some go into law enforcement because they really want to help people. but once that newness wears off and they are confronted with the real world of law enforcement they usually do one of two things. they either quit fairly quickly after a year or two if they make it that long or they become corrupt to some degree.

Agreed.

Seriously… I wouldn’t plan on a retirement unless it is funded by you. (In any type job)

Agreed.

[E4 No More]

$8.75.hour????? That is not enough to be risking your life for. I hope that was 35 years ago.

We started at $27,500/yr, but that was back in 1984. I don't know what they make now, but I'm sure it's not enough.

Police, Fire, Rescue, Military, Nurses, Doctors, Good Teachers - These people should be paid well in our society. They give the most. Unfortunately, almost all of these are usually paid the least.

When I joined my department in 1988 as a part-time officer, I worked for $5.50 per hour. When I was hired full time a year later it was a $24k per year.

I didn't become a police officer to get rich. I joined that particular department to get my foot in the door. I could have gone to another department, but the same political/corrupt crap was going on there too.