IRS Agents raid gun shop, take 4473s.

[Grayfox54]

This is an interesting story that's popped up on another forum I visit. 

A couple of days ago, armed IRS agents raided and temporarily closed a gun shop in Montana. After spending most of the day going thru records, they left with about 13 years worth of forms 4473. By all accounts, the agents were polite and behaved themselves. But questions remain. Why would the IRS raid a gun store? Why would they want/need the 4473s? 

Bear in mind that at this point there is little more than lots of speculation going on. Many are outraged and jumping to conclusions. Still waiting on actual facts as to why to come out. 

STORY HERE

2nd Story Here

[GlockSpock]

If it were the case of a private individual or group buying and selling firearms for profit, I imagine that would have involved the ATF.

 

My guess is the gunstore was underreporting income/sales and screwing the IRS. 
 

Those forms are transaction could perhaps be used to proof a certain number of sales in comparison to what they reported in taxes?

[Grayfox54]

New info: Story Here

Lots of people were getting all bent outta shape because a gun shop was involved. Tons of speculation about government over reach, Biden, dems and whatever.

Turns out its all about tax fraud. "The agents had a search warrant and claimed that Mr. Van Hoose underreported millions of dollars of income from his business, a claim Mr. Hoose vehemently denies."

Current guess is that the 4473s are to prove more sales than actually reported. 

So untwist those panties folks. Ain't no over reach or conspiracies here. 

[crc4]

It should be expected that the Democratic Party/Progressives will be treading as soft as possible with the elections on the future horizon, trying not to stir up too much rancor with decent folks.

At the same time they'll be promising the destruction of free speech and the 2nd Amendment, higher taxes on those that work, more entitlements to those that don't, and fanning the racial grievance propaganda industrial complex to their socialist comrades if only they'll lay low until after the elections.

Stock up now on guns and ammo. 2025 will be dangerous if the Progressives get re-elected.

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by crc4

[bersaguy]

I could believe it if the IRS said he underreported something in the $1000.00's but to say he did Millions of underpaying in taxes in the state of Montana is just to hard to fathom!!! It's not like Montana is really a populated state that has an overcrowding issue....JMHO!

[No_0ne]

5 hours ago, bersaguy said:

I could believe it if the IRS said he underreported something in the $1000.00's but to say he did Millions of underpaying in taxes in the state of Montana is just to hard to fathom!!! It's not like Montana is really a populated state that has an overcrowding issue....JMHO!

 

7 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

The agents had a search warrant and claimed that Mr. Van Hoose underreported millions of dollars of income from his business

"Underreporting of income" is not the same as failing to pay millions pf dollars in taxes - it means that he didn't report this amount in gross sales.  The taxes owed would have been substantially less, depending on expenses, overhead, depreciation schedules, etc.  I have no idea of the size of his business, but generating $1 million in gross sales doesn't take a particularly large enterprise, especially if the records encompassed several years of sales ...

Edited June 20, 2023 by No_0ne

[GlockSpock]

In a year, $1,000,000 would simply be $2,739.00 per day. That's not at all unreasonable for a gun shop in my opinion. That's just gross sales, by the way.

[Defender]

This one stinks.  While I'm not disagreeing with Grayfox54, above, I have to wonder why the 4473s were taken when the warrant said financial records, and why the ATF was there.  This means to me that those records are going to ATF and will stay there, either originals or copies or electronic copies.  Despite laws to the contrary, Im convinced the Feds keep gun owner records. Not entirely off topic, heres an interesting article about these laws in general.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12057/3

Edited June 20, 2023 by Defender

[Chucktshoes]

The records will go to the ATF because once the shop goes out of business, it’s records get shipped to the ATF. That said, while a good forensic accountant can likely suss out the details of any accounting shenanigans going on here, I suspect. that it’s a lot harder to hide the inventory moving in and out when it is on 4473s. 

[Defender]

17 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

The records will go to the ATF because once the shop goes out of business, it’s records get shipped to the ATF. That said, while a good forensic accountant can likely suss out the details of any accounting shenanigans going on here, I suspect. that it’s a lot harder to hide the inventory moving in and out when it is on 4473s. 

The store was still in business the day it was raided.  But I guess I do see your logic about IRS examining the forms.  Again, though, why the ATZf, snd how much ya wanna bet they keep copies if not the actual records of a store still in business?

[Chucktshoes]

I’m working from the assumption that this shop will no longer be in business after the prosecution. 
 

As far as acquiring records of stores still in business, it’s been well documented that they’ve been illegally scanning 4473s during inspections for quite a while. 

[peejman]

1 hour ago, Defender said:

This one stinks.  While I'm not disagreeing with Grayfox54, above, I have to wonder why the 4473s were taken when the warrant said financial records, and why the ATF was there.  This means to me that those records are going to ATF and will stay there, either originals or copies or electronic copies.  Despite laws to the contrary, Im convinced the Feds keep gun owner records. Not entirely off topic, heres an interesting article about these laws in general.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12057/3

The ATF was involved because the business owner has an FFL.  If millions unreported is the IRS accusation, taxes probably aren't the only thing this guy was cheating on. The ATF would be getting records from distributors and other retailers on what's been sent to this guy to compare to the 4473's.  

[gregintenn]

Well that solves the mystery of why the IRS was buying up all the guns and ammo a while back.

[bersaguy]

5 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Well that solves the mystery of why the IRS was buying up all the guns and ammo a while back.

Yep!  I can remember back several years ago that the Feds were buying a big amount of 357 magnums and thousands of Hollow point rounds of ammo to begin arming the IRS agents. It was back in the Obama years in DC. I guess now we know why for sure. 

[Kimber451911]

Unfortunately they probably had everything they needed already, and are just fishing for “xtra”

[crc4]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

Well that solves the mystery of why the IRS was buying up all the guns and ammo a while back.

Not to worry. If the Biden thugs get their way the IRS won't need to buy it. They'll just confiscate yours with the help of the ATF.

[Defender]

1 hour ago, peejman said:

The ATF was involved because the business owner has an FFL.  If millions unreported is the IRS accusation, taxes probably aren't the only thing this guy was cheating on. The ATF would be getting records from distributors and other retailers on what's been sent to this guy to compare to the 4473's.  

I guess I just don't like the ATF.  They could offer me free full auto machine guns and id still find fault with them.

[crc4]

2 minutes ago, Defender said:

I guess I just don't like the ATF.  They could offer me free full auto machine guns and id still find fault with them.

Good for you. Why would you like an organization that's determined to take away your guns, ammo, and criminalize your natural right of self-defense?

That would be like Jews liking the Gestapo.

[bersaguy]

17 minutes ago, Kimber451911 said:

Unfortunately they probably had everything they needed already, and are just fishing for “xtra”

The first report stated that all the 20 agents that made the raid were all well armed. That would mean the IRS agents were also armed which is a new addition for them. My older brother was an auditor for the IRS until he passed after working 17 years and he never carried a firearm when working out in the field. He was issued one along with ammo but never could get comfortable wearing it. I don't know if a judge can or would issue a search warrant for the 4473's so they got one for finances and just took what they wanted while they were there.....JMHO

[Kimber451911]

59 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

The first report stated that all the 20 agents that made the raid were all well armed. That would mean the IRS agents were also armed which is a new addition for them. My older brother was an auditor for the IRS until he passed after working 17 years and he never carried a firearm when working out in the field. He was issued one along with ammo but never could get comfortable wearing it. I don't know if a judge can or would issue a search warrant for the 4473's so they got one for finances and just took what they wanted while they were there.....JMHO

Most likely accurate… and as we know, all “they require” is the slightest invitation in-the-door, to make a real big mess 

[Omega]

 

[Defender]

50 minutes ago, Omega said:

 

well.  If he's right, Im pissed off again.