Why not notify LEO?

[Guest Matchguy]

Fine, don't tell him. And while you're at it don't make any sudden moves either. Right now is a very poor time in history to be doing things that scare cops, Constitutional rights or no Constitutional rights. Here's what I mean.

The atmosphere between cops and lawfully armed citizens in the USA right now reminds me of an old movie from the 60's entitled "The Bedford Incident" in which an American destroyer is shadowing a Soviet sub armed with nuclear missiles. As time goes by everyone aboard the destroyer gets more and more tense and nervous over the confrontation with the sub. At the climax of the movie two naval officers aboard the destroyer are talking near the missile launch officer and said: "If he fires one, I'll fire one." The launch officer, scared and worn out, only heard the "Fire One" part and hit the button to launch the #1 missile at the sub. Everyone froze as the missile cleared the ship and the sub's missile broke water in retaliation, and the movie ended with everyone on both sides being killed. A total misunderstanding, but neither missile could be recalled. This is what happens when people get scared to the breaking point.

I'm a retired California cop with 28 years service, much of it as a firearms and tactics instructor, and most of it in and around high crime areas in L.A, San Diego, and Sacramento. My advice to everyone packing a legal gun in our present environment is to do anything and everything possible to preclude a tragedy like the movie I just talked about.

Cops are scared s----less right now because of being gunned down in wholesale numbers, and in case you don't know it, traffic stops remain one of the largest killlers of cops in this country. And if there is ever a time when a cop is going to be scared and tense, it's on a traffic stop. During my 28 year career 68 CHP officers were killed in the line of duty, and another 39 have been killed since I retired. So If there is anything possible you can do to ease the tension between you as an armed citizen and the officer who stops you, for crying out loud do it. This is not the time for testosterone contests!

This is the time to be doing everything possible to protect our second amendment rights, even if it means having to go the extra mile for a mistaken, stupid, or badly trained cop for a few minutes.

No offense intended to anyone on TGO or anywhere else.

Matchguy

Retired Sgt

CHP, '65-93

Edited April 5, 2009 by Matchguy

[DaveTN]

I’m probably going to tell him because I’m going to be kissing his azz and trying to make small talk so he lets me go with a warning.

Yes… I absolutely will be a sell out and a kiss azz for a $200 speeding ticket.

[dralarms]

I’m probably going to tell him because I’m going to be kissing his azz and trying to make small talk so he lets me go with a warning.

Yes… I absolutely will be a sell out and a kiss azz for a $200 speeding ticket.

Well I'm not kissing any azz but I will inform simply because I would like to be informed if I was on the other end.

With all the shooting going on here right recently, I want the officer to know 1. I do have a HCP, and 2. I am carrying, and 3. I will do what ever is necessary to put him at ease.

All LEO's have 1 main rule. "I am going home at the end of my shift"

That being the case I want him to know instantly that while I am armed I am no threat to him whatsoever.

[Mike.357]

I do not get pulled over much, been years since I have been.

But I am informing them. If for no other reason than it may help get me out of a ticket.

took my hcp class from a Knox County sheriff, he said to inform. I will go with his judgement.

[Guest Glknknox]

I was told to inform in my carry class, 5-6 years ago.

Was always under the impression that is the correct thing to do.

I would do it anyway, haven't beeen pulled over in years ( knock on wood ) They are going to find out one way or the other anyway.

[Guest nosnos]

This is good, current, interesting talk. I'm appreciating the fact that a few of you other than the crotchety old veterans have been chiming in! These topics come up a lot because they are big topics regarding firearms. What else would we talk about here? Just our new guns/jeeps/whatever and avoid any new discussion? If I just wanted to I could google.

My original question was, why would you NOT notify a LEO? The few of you who have said that you won't notify until asked specifically, why not? I mean, "because I don't have to" seems like a stupid reason. You don't legally have to say please or thank you either. It seems that everyone who says that they won't tell the LEO uses this as their reason.

Before I make my decision about what I will do if I'm pulled over, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some really good reason not to bring it up myself. I can't imagine being an officer. Maybe I've watched too many episodes of "Most Extreme Cop Battles" or whatever, but finding out through a round-about way that there is a gun in the car would make me feel edgy.

Anyway. Thanks everyone. I hope that those who have no interest in talking about this stuff don't. YOU DON'T HAVE TO COMMENT ON EVERY SINGLE THREAD, you know? You know who you are....

[Mike.357]

YOU DON'T HAVE TO COMMENT ON EVERY SINGLE THREAD, you know

I missed that rule somewhere.

[DaveTN]

Before I make my decision about what I will do if I'm pulled over, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some really good reason not to bring it up myself.

There is no right answer; it’s just stuff to discuss on a gun forum.

I’m a former cop, but we didn’t have carry permits. But my thinking is that the good guys that will tell you aren’t; going to shoot you.

Now if I’m was going to jerk a guy through the side window of his car and beat the pizz out of him with my nightstick or taser him; I might appreciate it if he lets me know if he armed.

I have heard the stories about rogue cops that will chew your azz out for not telling them. Are they true? Who knows… but if I forget; I’ve had my azz chewed out before and lived through it.

I hope that those who have no interest in talking about this stuff don't. YOU DON'T HAVE TO COMMENT ON EVERY SINGLE THREAD, you know? You know who you are....

[Oh Shoot]

...OU DON'T HAVE TO COMMENT ON EVERY SINGLE THREAD, you know? You know who you are....

Well, hell...I didn't have anything to add to this thread, till you issued that challenge!

- OS

[Guest nosnos]

If only I had more time on my hands I'd try to keep up with you all!

[Guest Pistorius]

I am still just a mailbox buzzard, but I will inform when I begin carrying. I already do everything I can to make a cop at ease on the rare occasions that I pull over. I turn on the dome light and then keep my hands on the steering wheel until he asks me to do something. I respect police officers for the simple fact that they are putting themselves on the line, just like a soldier, and so I will treat them with respect. I certainly expect to be treated respectfully, so why shouldn't they? Besides, what harm is there in telling a cop that I am armed? Why would I tell him I am armed if I was going to pull it on him?

[Guest .45Jon]

My original question was, why would you NOT notify a LEO? The few of you who have said that you won't notify until asked specifically, why not? I mean, "because I don't have to" seems like a stupid reason. You don't legally have to say please or thank you either. It seems that everyone who says that they won't tell the LEO uses this as their reason.

Before I make my decision about what I will do if I'm pulled over, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some really good reason not to bring it up myself. I can't imagine being an officer. Maybe I've watched too many episodes of "Most Extreme Cop Battles" or whatever, but finding out through a round-about way that there is a gun in the car would make me feel edgy..

I just don't get it..I've been stopped a few times where i'm at and never informed and never been asked...they pull me over, i put my hands on the wheel, they ask for something I reach and get it for them then hands back on the wheel..simple as that...and twice they just gave a warning..no azz kissing here, as I do highly respect those who protect and serve.

What kind of reason do you want?...Its NOT the law, basically it's my right to not have to tell unless asked..and if that falls under " because I don't have to " then so be it.

BUT, If I have my firearm visible I definitly DO inform soon as the LEO approaches the car.

Just my opinion

Edited April 6, 2009 by .45Jon

[clarky07]

I would just like to note a few things to all those that say we can't have a topic twice.

1. New things may have changed people's minds over time.

2. New people may have joined since the last thread that would have information to share.

3. This isn't google, the search is really pretty terrible.

4. I like the idea of making threads that get asked over and over a sticky. Allow new threads to be started, then add them to the end of the sticky.

[Machman]

3. This isn't google, the search is really pretty terrible.

I don't use ANY forum's built-in search. Just use Google and add

site:tngunowners.com

(or whatever site you're mining) to the end of your search terms. That restricts the search to that site.

[Guest crotalus01]

I would agree with the "because I don't have to" sentiment; however, if you are looking for a 'valid' reason, how about this - many stories out there about cops who want to temporarily disarm you for 'officer safety'. I carry a Glock with one in the chamber, and I dont want anyone whose firearm abilities are unknown to me to handle my gun, period. Especially considering there is no external safety on it.

There are also many stories around about cops who only train shooting once or twice a year. Add to that the earlier post in this thread about traffic stops being one of the most dangerous and stressful situations for a cop to be in.

A stressed out, on edge person who is not used to handling a loaded weapon is the last person I want to be disarming me.

Having said that, I have never been pulled over while carrying and still not sure what I would do regarding notifying.

[Guest Pistorius]

This may be a dumb question, but what right does a cop have to disarm you if you are not being placed into custody and you have not made any threatening comments and/or gestures? Simply having a firearm on your person does not make you a threat.

[Guest LieutenantDan67]

My CCW instructor who's a Madison Cty deputy/SWAT vet says the same thing as Ayoob; hand over your HCP with your license, ins. and reg. wordlessly and wait for the LEO to respond, likely with "Do you have it on you/where is it?" Then (hands on the wheel the whole time, of course) you reply with something like "It's on my left hip. Tell me what you want me to do." In this case, you are informing, but the word GUN is never used.

I also have another friend who's a Memphis PD street cop, 10+ years. Here is his response to my 'declare or no' question via email:

Dan,

For me, I prefer to walk up to the car and ask for the license first, and explain why I stopped the person. I suggest you dont't start talking or moving around until after the officer asks you for license and paperwork.

At that point, keep your hands on the wheel and let him know that you have a permit and a weapon, and wait for a response. Most officers in one man cars will say, "Ok, where is your weapon, and is it loaded?" At that point, officers have numerous options. We can just ask that you don't touch the weapon and go on with the stop as usual, we can ask you to disarm the weapon and hand it to us so that we can hold it while verifying the permit status, or we can even ask you to step out of the vehicle and take it off of you ourselves during the stop.

I am laid back and depending on character judgement, usually just tell the person to leave it where it is, and I go on with a normal traffic stop. If you go grabbing for license, HCP and Ins. before telling him you have a weapon, the officer might see the weapon and go all "Robo Cop" on you.

I prefer to be told about a weapon before the person starts fishing around in his back pocket or her purse for paperwork. Just be real observant and see how many officers pull you over. The second officer on a traffic stop's sole purpose is to look for weapons in the front seat or on the driver, or contraband in the car. If they see the weapon and yell "GUN!" before you tell the officer you have a permit, DON'T MOVE, and once the officer stops yelling commands at you, calmly say "I have a permit and will not move until you tell me exactly what you want me to do." After you pick the tazer leads out of your chest and become intimately aware of what and ASP can do... make sure you write legibly and press hard, there are 3 copies in a citation....

So, there's two more points of view from two really good LEOs.

[Guest db99wj]

Fun topic, always gets differing opinions that I can take good and bad from.

Here is my answer. Depends.

Been through two road blocks, sobriety and seatbelt check points. Did not inform, handed a license as they looked at it, and my license plate number, and used a flash light to shine into my kids wide eyes (they were having a good time being pulled over). Was told to have a good night, be careful, handed back my dl, and sent on my way.

General overview, been awhile, not all details are as clear. Pulled over for speeding in Memphis on Sam Cooper. I pulled onto a cross street, beside a church. was able to get my license and permit before cop got his car into park, rolled down ALL windows (old Jeep at tint all the way around, front ds and pass side were a little dark;) ), he asked for dl, I gave it to him and said I have a permit to carry. He asked where, I said on my right hip, he said OK. Went back and wrote a ticket. Was very nice. Once over, I told him I was a new permit holder, what he would prefer. He said you did great, I never felt threatened or anything. We talked for another minute and I went on about my way.

Got pulled over a couple of months ago, tailight out on my Jeep. Female Cop by herself. 2 of my kids in the car. Was able to get to my dl and permit, got windows down by the time she got out of her car. She announced dl and registration and insurance, you have a tailight out. Kinda irked me a little, moreso because I thought I had just fixed it. Did NOT inform, she said "Hmm, you got a permit.." (more of a statement instead of a question). I said yes maam. She walked away, wrote my ticket, then sent me on my way. As I was getting ready to pull out, she took off around me and pulled someone over with a break light out...she must be a stickler for those lights being in good working order!

I have also run across many LEO's, usually at a former job (bank) or elsewhere like the range and asked the same question, what do you prefer, have all said they prefer to be informed. So depends.

[Guest slothful1]

I have never been pulled over, but if I were, I don't think I'd provide superfluous information without being asked. There are billion other things I'm not telling the LEO, that doesn't mean I'm trying to "hide" information.

Now, if for some reason the LEO asked me to get out of the car, I'd inform that I was carrying, before he'd have a chance to see it.

[DaveTN]

This may be a dumb question, but what right does a cop have to disarm you if you are not being placed into custody and you have not made any threatening comments and/or gestures?

Well first… because carrying a gun is not a right; it is a privilege that you buy. The legislation that gives you that privilege also gives the Officer the right to disarm you.

Secondly, a cop may simply think you look like you are going to be a problem; at that point gun control goes into effect.

Simply having a firearm on your person does not make you a threat.

It certainly makes you a potential threat.

Not all cops are going to disarm you; but I would guess the ones that do have a reason.

[Guest Whiskers]

I was one of the first group to get a permit in my county. There were 12 LEOs and 3 citizens on the firing range that day.... The LEOs were there for their requal. We all shot the same targets.... same range and all... I'm sure that most of the current LEOs in that county know already that I have a permit. I recently talked to the officer who taught the class (the LEOs went through the same class I did). He told me that I was a topic of discussion for weeks among the officers for shooting the best score of the day. BTW, the second best score was shot by the only woman there... using a Makarov. One bail officer/jailer failed to qualify.

I've been through two sobriety checkpoints in the last couple of years in that county and they just waved me through with a smile.

[Guest robert83]

I took my permit class from the Williamson County Sheriff Dept. This question was asked to them. Their response was to only tell the officer if he asked.

[Guest justme]

T.C.A 39-15-1351 (t) Any law enforcement officer of this state or of any county or municipality may, within the realm of the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, disarm a permit holder at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals. The officer shall return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the permit holder is not a threat to the officer, to the permit holder, or other individual or individuals provided that the permit holder has not violated any provision of this section and provided the permit holder has not committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder.

looks to me like the only time a LEO may disarm you is when they can reasonably articulate that it is absolutely necessary--otherwise it seems on the face of it like this would fall under a 14th amendment violation.

the law does not say they can disarm you just because they feel like it--the law reads that they have to "reasonably believe" that disarming you is necessary for "officer safety"--just saying it is about "officer safety" should not be good enough--seems to me that falls a little more on the side of being able to legitimately articulate a reason instead of the old seat of the pants, shout "officer safety" and everything that happens from there is OK thing...

[Guest justme]

Well first… because carrying a gun is not a right; it is a privilege that you buy. The legislation that gives you that privilege also gives the Officer the right to disarm you.

This is true for Tn, California and many states--but there are more than a handful where carrying a gun is still a right--Virginia, Alaska, I think new Hampshire, Vermont, Kentucky, Louisiana--it is still a "right" as guaranteed by the Constitution. Other states have turned it into a privilege, and sadly, Tennessee is among them.

Secondly, a cop may simply think you look like you are going to be a problem; at that point gun control goes into effect.

Looks can be deceiving...and there should have to be more than a "look" involved.

It certainly makes you a potential threat.

in what way? Just because you carry a gun does not make you a threat to anyone except the criminal that would try to harm you.

Not all cops are going to disarm you; but I would guess the ones that do have a reason.

Maybe they are just afraid of the people?

[Guest oldbs]

It seems to me the best all around policy is to carry what and when you wish, keep it concealed, keep your mouth shut about it at all times to anyone unless asked, then respond appropriately. That seems to go for traffic stop, shopping, at the mall or wherever. Is this to simple?