Rant with questions for LEO's

[Shug]

This is a couple of incidents that happened to my son a few months back. He has NEVER been any kind of trouble and is always respectful of his elders. I have always taught him to respect the law, but when things like this happen it is hard. The first was in Athens Tn, he was with a friend that was pulled over for having a car that "looked like one they were looking for" The officer told them to get out and put their hands on the car and searched them then searched the car. Told them they could go. { 1 officer}

The second incident happened in Charleston Tn. He was pulled over on the river bridge for a "Tag lumination light" being out. Also told to step out and was searched. Then was told if he gave permission to search the truck he would not get a ticket for the "Tag lumination light" being out. Had to sit on the bridge for a hour. {2 officers & 1 trainee}

My questions are.

Since when can you be searched for no apparent reason?

Is a "tag lumination light" being out against the law?

If you dont follow their orders to do these, is that failure to comply?

[chipperi]

I am not a LEO But

The first was in Athens Tn, he was with a friend that was pulled over for having a car that "looked like one they were looking for" The officer told them to get out and put their hands on the car and searched them then searched the car. Told them they could go. { 1 officer}

Sometime cops have very few details and if the car fit the description then they did what they had to do... At least they apoligized.

The second incident happened in Charleston Tn. He was pulled over on the river bridge for a "Tag lumination light" being out. Also told to step out and was searched. Then was told if he gave permission to search the truck he would not get a ticket for the "Tag lumination light" being out. Had to sit on the bridge for a hour. {2 officers & 1 trainee}

Probably wouldn't normally happen but there was a trainee present so either they were using it as training or the vetran cop was going "hey look what I can do"

Since when can you be searched for no apparent reason?

Is a "tag lumination light" being out against the law?

If you dont follow their orders to do these, is that failure to comply?

1: Not with out a reason or Probable Cause. In the 1st instance they had probable cause in the second your son granted permission, if he wouldn't have consented they would have suspected he was hiding something then used probable cause to search. The laws are built to allow cops to do what ever they want.

2: Yes it is against the law.

3: If a cop issues a lawful command and you don't comply you can be arrested. I moved here from MD and I know there if you refuse to sign a traffic ticket they can lock you up for "failure to comply"

[Guest mustangdave]

best advise....know your "rights"...but don't be stupid. Its always best to do as John Law says/asks

[E4 No More]

Unless the law has changed in the 16 years since I was a policeman, you cannot search a vehicle without probable cause or permission. Exercising your right to privacy by not giving permission to search does not constitute probable cause: however, it can expedite your being let free to go on about your business. They can hold you up to 90 minutes while they get a drug dog out there to sniff your car. If the dog hits it's probable cause to search.

What most people confuse with a "search" is the police officer's right to check the immediate area for threats to his safety, (weapons). That's why they can frisk you. Those areas are anywhere within lunge or reach of the person stopped. That does not include locked containers such as a glovebox or trunk. Many times the officer finds stuff during this process that constitutes probable cause like a weapon you are concealing illegally, or drugs you failed to stash.

[Shug]

I am not a LEO But

1: Not with out a reason or Probable Cause. In the 1st instance they had probable cause in the second your son granted permission, if he wouldn't have consented they would have suspected he was hiding something then used probable cause to search. The laws are built to allow cops to do what ever they want.

He only gave them permission to look in the car after he got out and was searched. If they were really looking for that car they would called for back-up

I respect the law and have the deep respect for the officers {that dersirve it} and the job they do for the little pay and political B*S* that they have to put up with. About 15 years ago I worked for a LE Organization so I know the little excuses that is used to pull someone over. I just wanted to know when it became acceptable to search someone for no reason hopeing to find something.

[Fadex]

I have been pulled over for some pretty questionable reasons in the past. Once for expired tags...when the temporary tag was taped in the center of the rear window clearly visible from behind and from where the officer was standing.

But my favorite is "because you looked too young to be out after curfew" LMAO...I was 28 with a goatee and smoking a cigar.

[strickj]

The biggest bust come from little stuff like an out light,or a low tire....right?

Personally I have no reason not to tell a cop he cant search my vehicle,but in your sons case where it was either that or a ticket,I would have gone with a ticket!

I cant imagine it costing much,and I also imagine it would have been dropped after showing proof the bulb was replaced

[oldogy]

Keep in mind that youth are never as assertive as we mature folks tend to be. Seems to me a faulty equipment ticket would be a no brainer. Just take it and go on down the road while displaying a great attitude all this time.

oldogy

Edited April 4, 2009 by oldogy
wording

[DaveTN]

I am a former cop, but not in Tennessee. I will give you my opinion anyway.

Since when can you be searched for no apparent reason?

When the reason isn’t apparent to you. Probable cause is a 12 lane interstate 1000 miles long.

If they were looking for a car like the one he was in; they are good to go. I would usually wait for a traffic violation to stop them though.

Is a "tag lumination light" being out against the law?

I don’t know if it is here, but it was where I was from. However… it’s not a violation that most cops would stop you for, it’s a violation that is used when they need PC for a stop.

If you don’t follow their orders to do these, is that failure to comply?

Do what? You never have to give consent to search; you just can’t try to stop or block them from searching. If it is an unlawful search that is dealt with later in court; never on the street.

Kids deserve to understand what is going to happen on a traffic stop, what their rights are, and how to handle the situation in case they run into a bad cop, or what they think is a bad cop. It could impact their future. Do your kid a favor and don’t tell them dumb azz chit like “Always refuse a search” and “Never answer their questions”. If you want to be a martyr that’s fine, but let your kid get old enough and intelligent enough to make that decision on their own.

[Fallguy]

But Dave....isn't an hour a long time for a search incident to a tag illumination light being out stop?

[DaveTN]

But Dave....isn't an hour a long time for a search incident to a tag illumination light being out stop?

I don’t know, I wasn’t there. Did they have to wait 30 minutes for the drug dog to get there?

As I already said, the issue wasn’t the light.

[Fallguy]

I don’t know, I wasn’t there. Did they have to wait 30 minutes for the drug dog to get there?

As I already said, the issue wasn’t the light.

Oh granted the light was just PC to stop him.

Apparently nothing was found though...so inicidents like this, where a good kid (assuming, because of no evidence to the contrary) is stopped for minor infraction and held up for an hour, is what can give some a less than stellar opinion of LE though.

[DaveTN]

Oh granted the light was just PC to stop him.

Apparently nothing was found though...so inicidents like this, where a good kid (assuming, because of no evidence to the contrary) is stopped for minor infraction and held up for an hour, is what can give some a less than stellar opinion of LE though.

Is it right for the cops to stop good kids and hold them for an hour for no reason? No….obviously.

Is that what happened? Doubtful.

I couldn’t care less what opinions my kids had of cops. They grew up around them so it was what it was. When they got older I just wanted to be absolutely sure that they didn’t do something that would cost them severely.

[Guest Traumaslave]

And about the destruction resulting from the search? I have seen MANY cars torn to shreads on the side of I-75. I know it is a major route for lots of bad stuff but, ShaZam!!! Dumping suitcases, trunks torn down to the spare,,,,,,,, Now not only am I out the time for the search, endangered on the side of the highway, and pissed off cause some badge decided to give a guy a hard time,, I gotta put all my ***** back together. Been there, done that.

[Guest Boomhower]

When the reason isn’t apparent to you. Probable cause is a 12 lane interstate 1000 miles long.

If they were looking for a car like the one he was in; they are good to go. I would usually wait for a traffic violation to stop them though.

So, basically you are saying that I have no right to the privacy and securement of my person or belongings when I am stopped by a LEO?.....and If I feel that my forth amendment rights were violated during the un-voluntary search of my vehicle, then I have to take it up in court at a later date and time.

[DaveTN]

So, basically you are saying that I have no right to the privacy and securement of my person or belongings when I am stopped by a LEO?

No, that’s not what I said.

and If I feel that my forth amendment rights were violated during the un-voluntary search of my vehicle, then I have to take it up in court at a later date and time.

Correct. You have many, many avenues of recourse available to you. All of them are available after the traffic stop.

Hey look…. I know this doesn’t sit well with a lot of people. Everyone wants to be a lawyer and hold court on the street. I’m just pointing out that while you may think that is how it should be; it isn’t.

If you want to help pay for your attorneys big home that’s great, but don’t give your kid information that will mess them up. They expect you to give them straight information that won’t hurt them.

[Guest Boomhower]

No, that’s not what I said.

Then how are my rights suppose to protect me if they can be so easily rolled over and stomped?

Correct. You have many, many avenues of recourse available to you. All of them are available after the traffic stop.

I guess one of the things that all non-LEO folk struggle with is the fact that once you get in court it's gonna be your word against the officers, and I'm pretty sure we all know which side the judge is going to lean towards.

Let's say I get pulled over "just because my car matched a BOLO", and I along with my car are searched against my will. I take it to court to seek a recourse avenue, what is a possible repercussion for the officer that violates my rights?

[DaveTN]

Then how are my rights suppose to protect me if they can be so easily rolled over and stomped?

You need a Judge to determine that your rights have been violated. Searches do not require a warrant, and are not a violation of your rights. Unreasonable searches are a violation of your rights.

I guess one of the things that all non-LEO folk struggle with is the fact that once you get in court it's gonna be your word against the officers, and I'm pretty sure we all know which side the judge is going to lean towards.

Almost everything is on video anymore.

If you know what is going to happen in court; keep that in mind. But Judges don't always side with the cops.

Let's say I get pulled over "just because my car matched a BOLO", and I along with my car are searched against my will. I take it to court to seek a recourse avenue, what is a possible repercussion for the officer that violates my rights?

Nothing will happen to the Officer if the Judge believes that the Officer thought he was acting within the law. Cops are human and make mistakes.

A Doctor makes an innocent mistake and someone dies. Is his medical license revoked? Probably not.

Your attorney makes a mistake and you are sent to prison. Is he disbarred? Nope.

A cop makes a mistake and your car gets searched. No one is hurt. Does he lose his job? Nope.

We don’t have a justice system; we have a legal system. Things can happen to you that are not fair.

[Guest shadow12]

One of the things that people need to understand, what you may call a "search", is just a Terry frisk to us. A Terry frisk is used to check for weapons, officer safety issue. This is what you see on TV when the officer "pats" down someone. I do it all of the time. And the area of the vehicle that is open to the occupants is also covered under this. We can't just start tearing your car apart, without probable cause. However we sometimes find that when we do a Terry frisk.

As Dave said, don't try to fight the stop on the road, you will lose. Almost every police agency in this country has video. If you feel like you were wronged, you can get a copy of your stop. The video becomes public information, as soon as it is recorded.

[Guest mustangdave]

Shadow12...DaveTN...guys you can explain it until you're blue in the face. These "I have my RIGHTS!!!" zealots will argue with you until the cows come home. Common Sence gentlemen...if you have nothing to hide...just do as the officer requests...it gets done and yu're on your way. Be smart.

[BIG ROB]

What a thread!

I have read a lot of information that is just absolutely 100% incorrect. I have also read some that is correct.

To search anything you have to have two things. One, probably cause. Two, consent from a person in control or with the authority to grant consent. The one exception to a warrant, is if you can articulate exigent circumstances that the evidence of a crime is likely to be destroyed in the time it would take to obtain a warrant. You still have to prove that you had probably cause to justify the search. You simply must prove the exigency as well.

The license plate light law. ahhhh this is a fabulous topic. I have challenged many, many, many people to show me the TCA that states you must have one. If someone knows it, please pass it on so I stand corrected.

I don't know your son. I don't know the officer in question. I know to most fathers, there children are the apple of their eye and they can do NO wrong. Not saying that here, just saying. I also know that there are TON of crappy police out there. I would gues about 5% or better. That all boils down to leadership within the city/county and the administration. Numerous times smaller departments don't have the luxury of supurbly trained officers. In fact most, not just small, places don't have enough training. There is a reason why the number one reason departments get sued is "lack of training".

With that said, IF the officer told your son that he would get a ticket if he did not allow him to search, then that officer has coerced the consent and it would not matter if he was smuggling 1000 pounds of weed. That search would have been kicked. But in all reality I don't think it would have made it passed the stop.

I am sorry but I will not get into the time issue. Too many variables could come into play to say if they took too long or not. The fact is if they consented to the search then your son dictates the time. At the point he is ready to go, the officers either need reasonable suspicion to continue the stop or let him go.

Too many officers of today rely on COPS (tv show) as a training tool. Different states have different laws and you must know YOUR states laws to do your job correctly if you are going to enforce it.

At any rate, please look at the big picture. Check out your sons friends. They may be the ones that the different officers may be keying on. Thing about small towns is we all know each other one way or another. Reputations are key!

If you really think that something wrong has happened, then please go talk to the officers supervisor. Don't go and be rude or anything. Just simply ask for an explination of why the things happened the way they did. Make sure your son or his friend were nice. Ask if there was a video tape that you could see for yourself. As a law enforcement supervisor, I welcome that. It does not bother me one bit. Things like this may allow me to open parents eyes or find an issue that needs to be addressed to make our area law enforment better.

Good luck, hope I helped some.

[DaveTN]

Shadow12...DaveTN...guys you can explain it until you're blue in the face. These "I have my RIGHTS!!!" zealots will argue with you until the cows come home. Common Sence gentlemen...if you have nothing to hide...just do as the officer requests...it gets done and yu're on your way. Be smart.

I know they will argue forever. I don’t think most of them do it because they want to argue, I think they do it because they truly don’t understand the law and want desperately to believe those that that don’t know any more than they do simply because they are telling them a bunch of stuff that they want to hear.

I commented in this thread and some of the others because it is a parent questioning something that happened to their kid. I assume they are trying to get information so they can educate their child.

I have seen too many cases of kids going to jail because they acted exactly the way their misinformed parents told them to act when they were stopped.

Search and seizure and Constitutional law are fascinating things to discuss or even argue. But do it right here on an internet forum where there is no harm; not on the street during a traffic stop.

[Guest Boomhower]

Shadow12...DaveTN...guys you can explain it until you're blue in the face. These "I have my RIGHTS!!!" zealots will argue with you until the cows come home. Common Sence gentlemen...if you have nothing to hide...just do as the officer requests...it gets done and yu're on your way. Be smart.

Zealot I am not....I am merely asking questions using my opinion as talking points............If more people were willing to lay down as your comment suggest, why we wouldn't need any form of law to protect ourselves, now would we. Kumbaya!

DaveTN......thanks for playing along. You are one of the few present/former LEO's that will offer up their opinion/advice.

Shadow12.......thanks for your input as well. Knowing you personally, it is a value to me.

Big Rob......Great input. Probably some of the most useful information on this forum.

Edited April 5, 2009 by Boomhower

[cadillacdude1975]

i read somewhere but i dont remember, in tennessee, the police can not detain you for any length longer than it takes to write a citation. when pulled over, make sure your car is stopped somewhere that you can leave it parked. you can deny the search. the best thing to do is roll the windows up, take the key out, lock the doors and shut them. if they want to search, they will have to get a warrant, and that is where the time limit comes in for the reasonable amount of detainment time.

i will find where i read that and post it. it might have been here on TGO, but i am unsure.

[Guest Boomhower]

I know they will argue forever. I don’t think most of them do it because they want to argue, I think they do it because they truly don’t understand the law and want desperately to believe those that that don’t know any more than they do simply because they are telling them a bunch of stuff that they want to hear.

I argue for the information........the law and the means of the law being instituted can be a tangled web.