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[Links2k]

I’m a big believer in STEM. This video with the exception of the historically inaccurate photo of the 150yo classroom, sums up my feelings about the American educational system. 
 

We need all skills of labor for the economy to function, but we really need more STEM educated innovators if we truly want to prepare our children for the future instead of the warehouse.  
 

This is not the fault of teachers who are overworked and underpaid. It’s the fault of corporations and corrupt government!

https://www.facebook.com/792855756/posts/pfbid0iVuvX3XkziJAY2sqig4CnfaLcb2RwNa4TXKRcfsx7LdnFGQENpiRmESxB8qCWnxAl/

[gregintenn]

He ain’t wrong.

[RED333]

Any one see the trades left to go oversees and as well as left out at schools about the same time?

[Luckyforward]

Chattanooga is my hometown.  As you went through the school system, your high school goal was college prep or technical.  I graduated from Chattanooga High School and went on to college.

The REALLY SMART guys who had the knowledge and ability (that I still do not have!) went to Kirkman Technical High School and learned a trade: welding, HVAC, auto mechanics.

It was a great system that worked well; wish we would return to it.

[BigK]

20 minutes ago, Luckyforward said:

Chattanooga is my hometown.  As you went through the school system, your high school goal was college prep or technical.  I graduated from Chattanooga High School and went on to college.

The REALLY SMART guys who had the knowledge and ability (that I still do not have!) went to Kirkman Technical High School and learned a trade: welding, HVAC, auto mechanics.

It was a great system that worked well; wish we would return to it.

I hedged my bets in HS. I took all the classes I could to prepare for college, but I also took as many vocational/technical classes as I could too. Vo-tech classes are very important too and are just what some kids need to have a better future.

[Luckyforward]

1 minute ago, BigK said:

I hedged my bets in HS. I took all the classes I could to prepare for college, but I also took as many vocational/technical classes as I could too. Vo-tech classes are very important too and are just what some kids need to have a better future.

I took a bunch of vo-tech classes which only proved I had 10 thumbs . . . 

[MacGyver]

FWIW - from someone who teaches a couple of times a year at the graduate level.

First - while it's generally considered impolite to say it out loud - it's really hard to run a $23T economy without either a. having tons of kids die in industrial accidents or b. by finding a way to keep them safe and occupied while their parents are engaged with the various engines of the economy.  Primary and secondary schooling serve a critical societal function in keeping kids alive while their parents are at work. (It's worth pointing out that we lose enough kids to school shootings that it would probably get into #s/100k that OSHA would start to care about if it were an actual industry.)

Second, primary and secondary schools - and to some extent colleges and universities in the last generation serve to make cogs that fit into the above engines of the economy efficiently.  People have always liked to argue "kids these days" - but the schools generally perform the above function within parameters that are acceptable to industry.

Third, empire is hard - and across the empire you'll have better and worse implementations.  For better or worse (maybe better and worse) this American Republic kind of incentivizes that.  It's built into our federalist system.

Fourth, every kid is different - and those differences are probably more pronounced right now than they ever have been in history.  We need educational options for all of those kids.  I know some kids who at 13 - via what they've already learned in school and on their own could fit right in as a junior developer in a whole bunch of shops.  At the same time, not every kid is going to be interested in or be capable of going down that path.  We need options for everyone - and for the last generation (as student loans have become easy to get as they're backstopped by the government) we've kind of shoehorned everyone down one path.

Fifth, there is dignity and respect in the trades - and we need SO MANY MORE people in this space.  If I could change one thing in our schools today - it would be to incentivize more people down this path.  It's a great pathway into the upper middle class - and we need it as a nation. A great opportunity for the next generation is to take things like coding - that to this point have required some type of college degree - and make it a reliable blue-collar job that can be done from anywhere.

Last, don't discount today's kids.  I work and teach in STEM fields.  The kids I work with today are absolutely the smartest, most capable kids I've ever met.  They have so much opportunity in front of them.  I kind of envy them

[BigK]

I keep wondering to what degree putting cell phones into the hands of kids at younger and younger ages is rotting their brains. I worry that all the focus on STEM and Vo-Tech in the world can't hold a candle to what FB, Candy Crush, and TikTok are doing to their brains.

[Luckyforward]

5 hours ago, BigK said:

I keep wondering to what degree putting cell phones into the hands of kids at younger and younger ages is rotting their brains. I worry that all the focus on STEM and Vo-Tech in the world can't hold a candle to what FB, Candy Crush, and TikTok are doing to their brains.

I was reading some research the other day about the correlation between adolescent screen time and depression.  Lots of studies going on at present with no "100%" conclusion, but I found the following interesting:

The researchers also looked to see if a child's present use of social media predicted a decrease of life satisfaction one year later. That data suggests two windows of time when children are most sensitive to detrimental effects of social media, especially heavy use of it. For girls, one window occurs at ages 11 through 13. And for boys, one window occurs at ages 14 and 15. For both genders, there's a window of sensitivity around age 19 — or near the time teenagers enter college. Amy Orben and her team at the University of Cambridge reported the findings in Nature Communications.

This type of evidence is known as a correlative. "It's hard to draw conclusions from these studies," Gentzkow says, because many factors contribute to life satisfaction, such as environmental factors and family backgrounds. Plus, people may use social media because they're depressed (and so depression could be the cause, not the outcome of social media use).

"Nevertheless, these correlative studies, together with the evidence from the causal experiments, paint a picture that suggests we should take social media seriously and be concerned," Gentzkow adds.

Psychologist Orben once heard a metaphor that may help parents understand how to approach this new technology. Social media for children is a bit like the ocean, she says, noting that it can be an extremely dangerous place for children. Before parents let children swim in any open water, they make sure the child is well-prepared and equipped to handle problems that arise. They provide safety vests, swimming lessons, often in less dangerous waters, and even then parents provide a huge amount of supervision.

[BigK]

2 minutes ago, Luckyforward said:

Psychologist Orben once heard a metaphor that may help parents understand how to approach this new technology. Social media for children is a bit like the ocean, she says, noting that it can be an extremely dangerous place for children. Before parents let children swim in any open water, they make sure the child is well-prepared and equipped to handle problems that arise. They provide safety vests, swimming lessons, often in less dangerous waters, and even then parents provide a huge amount of supervision.

That was very interesting, thanks. I especially found this last part interesting. We pay lots of attention to our kids' (or in my case grandkid) physical safety, but we don't pay close enough attention to our kids' emotional safety.

Example: my 8 yr old grandson got in trouble for saying vulgar phrase on the bus and was suspended for 3 days. I KNOW for a fact nobody in my house says that phrase. Recently he started preferring to use headphones when he watches YT on my tablet when I'm near. It didn't take much sleuthing to realize what's going on. So, we had a sit-down to discuss it my expectations for his behavior and to explain why he has to listen out loud now. First words out of his mouth were please don't tell anyone at church. That alone tells me he's embarrassed and knows it's wrong. I hope we don't have to revisit this, but I was a kid once and it didn't take long to learn how you talk among peers vs what an adult might hear.

[Luckyforward]

1 minute ago, BigK said:

That was very interesting, thanks. I especially found this last part interesting. We pay lots of attention to our kids' (or in my case grandkid) physical safety, but we don't pay close enough attention to our kids' emotional safety.

Example: my 8 yr old grandson got in trouble for saying vulgar phrase on the bus and was suspended for 3 days. I KNOW for a fact nobody in my house says that phrase. Recently he started preferring to use headphones when he watches YT on my tablet when I'm near. It didn't take much sleuthing to realize what's going on. So, we had a sit-down to discuss it my expectations for his behavior and to explain why he has to listen out loud now. First words out of his mouth were please don't tell anyone at church. That alone tells me he's embarrassed and knows it's wrong. I hope we don't have to revisit this, but I was a kid once and it didn't take long to learn how you talk among peers vs what an adult might hear.

WELL DONE, GRANDDAD!

Your statement, ". . . we don't pay close enough attention to our kids' emotional safety" is spot on!  I no longer do therapy with kids but supervise those who do.  So often a child is brought in for therapy when the mitigating reason for the child's issue is the failure of the parent/guardian to be emotionally present for the child.

[Grayfox54]

Our current educational system is a disaster. No child left behind, grades don't matter, everybody gets a trophy and you're so special. We have kids graduating high school who can barely read or write. They struggle with basic math and they have no comprehension of science or history. But they sure are woke! Our schools are little more than liberal indoctrination centers. 

School should be hard. It should be challenging. It should make kids work hard and think for themselves. Failure is the best teacher.  

Then they're suddenly thrust out into a real world that they're completely unprepared for. They soon discover that they aren't special and nobody gives a damn about them. You actually have to work to accomplish your goals. Some of them just can't handle it and fall into depression or worse. 

This has been going on for at least the last 30 years or more. Now we have a bunch of ignorant , liberal drones who vote. And that is what is wrong with this country today. 

[MacGyver]

5 hours ago, BigK said:

I keep wondering to what degree putting cell phones into the hands of kids at younger and younger ages is rotting their brains. I worry that all the focus on STEM and Vo-Tech in the world can't hold a candle to what FB, Candy Crush, and TikTok are doing to their brains.

We've pretty well out kicked our evolution at large when it comes to technology.  When you think about it - society has changed more in the last 50 years than it has the last 50,000.

Multiple things can be true at the same time -and actually we're seeing Gen Z'ers with better relationships with technology than the older generations.  Especially amongst the oldest generations - there are some troubling patterns.  But, with all that - we've documented the harmful effects that things like Facebook/Instagram have on kids.  Facebook did the study - and then didn't release it because it showed such harms - especially to teenage girls.

I'm convinced that in 50 years - assuming we're still here as a species - our grandkids will look at our use of social media much like many of us looked at our grandparents who smoked 18 hours a day.  They'll look at us with a, "how could you not have known that was bad for you" mentality.

[BigK]

2 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

We've pretty well out kicked our evolution at large when it comes to technology.  When you think about it - society has changed more in the last 50 years than it has the last 50,000.

Multiple things can be true at the same time -and actually we're seeing Gen Z'ers with better relationships with technology than the older generations.  Especially amongst the oldest generations - there are some troubling patterns.  But, with all that - we've documented the harmful effects that things like Facebook/Instagram have on kids.  Facebook did the study - and then didn't release it because it showed such harms - especially to teenage girls.

I'm convinced that in 50 years - assuming we're still here as a species - our grandkids will look at our use of social media much like many of us looked at our grandparents who smoked 18 hours a day.  They'll look at us with a, "how could you not have known that was bad for you" mentality.

I pray you're right about his last part. 

[Links2k]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I'm convinced that in 50 years - assuming we're still here as a species - our grandkids will look at our use of social media much like many of us looked at our grandparents who smoked 18 hours a day.  They'll look at us with a, "how could you not have known that was bad for you" mentality.

This is probably true. However, I’m thrilled that we have the internet, reliable satellites (remember communicating on the MARS overseas) and  social media. As with everything, moderation is the key. 
 

I can also relate to parent’s concerns about younger children using social media. Just today I saw a story about bipartisan support for a bill banning the use of social media by children under 13 years of age. I’m all for it. Children and some adults can be extremely cruel.  Social media unnecessarily amplifies the cruelty. 
 

For me the pros of social media are in most cases being able to witness history in real time, examination of other cultures, learning in general, it makes it  harder for corrupt governments to germinate into full blown dictatorships or authoritarianism, because people are more informed, aware and information is disseminated rapidly. Also, short of getting rid of the internet, social media makes it more difficult for those who wish to ban books, delete and erase history. As we’ve seen in crackdowns all over the world, information still finds a way out. 

Thanks for the time you spend teaching STEM.  Those kids are amazing information sponges, and like myself, full of questions. It’s alway a pleasure chatting with with young people.

I 

[Luckyforward]

Absolutely - kudos to you, MacGyver for teaching STEM!  And banning social media is not the answer; it just makes it more alluring.  We have to teach our kids and grandkids what to watch out for and how to use it responsibly; just like everything else in life that is a potential life issue.

[Luckyforward]

Why I would never be a good STEM student:

[gregintenn]

Basically, public schools serve as free babysitters. They are a good environment in which to learn social skills. If a parent is serious about their child’s education, they need to take a primary role in teaching them what they should know.

As long as public schools are ran by .gov and there is a teacher’s union, you aren’t likely to see any improvement.

Edited April 27, 2023 by gregintenn

[MacGyver]

I think one should definitely approach schooling and whatever choices they make around that as a part of a larger system.

Someone a few years ago put it to me like this: "We view our role at (this school) as a partnership between us at (the school), your family, and the local church you're a part of. All of those are critical elements in raising a healthy child - and if any one of those is missing - the whole stool is less balanced and may tip over."

 

 

[Luckyforward]

20 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I think one should definitely approach schooling and whatever choices they make around that as a part of a larger system.

Someone a few years ago put it to me like this: "We view our role at (this school) as a partnership between us at (the school), your family, and the local church you're a part of. All of those are critical elements in raising a healthy child - and if any one of those is missing - the whole stool is less balanced and may tip over."

 

 

EXACTLY!  When my kids were growing up, I met their teachers and got to know them as persons.  I made sure they understood that I was an interested, involved, and supportive of their efforts.

And then I talked with my children about school, knew what their assignments were, kept up with what was going on.

I never had a negative interaction with any teachers because they knew me and they knew of my interest and that I backed them.  I also never spoke of the teachers in anything but an appreciative way to my children.

 

 

[BigK]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I think one should definitely approach schooling and whatever choices they make around that as a part of a larger system.

Someone a few years ago put it to me like this: "We view our role at (this school) as a partnership between us at (the school), your family, and the local church you're a part of. All of those are critical elements in raising a healthy child - and if any one of those is missing - the whole stool is less balanced and may tip over."

 

 

I agree with that statement, but that's not the bill of goods being delivered. In my opinion only one leg of that stool is doing their job most of the time.

Too many parents are guilty of treating the school like a babysitter and only poking their nose in when something they don't like happens. Thank God for the good parents who pay attention and keep the school in check though. Without concerned parents look at that sketchy stuff they've tried to sneak into their curriculum.

Luckily, most teachers are good, but the ones who put their personal agenda ahead of educating kids should be run out of the profession. Sadly, it's not happening because the fox (liberal bureaucrats and college professors teaching the teachers) is in charge of watching the hen house.

Edited April 27, 2023 by BigK
typo

[MacGyver]

Let me offer this from personal experience - as someone who’s married to a teacher who was in one of those “liberal” school districts.

Even if there were some agenda to be pushed - there isn’t the time, will, or resource to push it.

She spent her days making sure her kids had enough to eat.  There’s no telling how many coats and pairs of shoes we’ve bought.

She spends her off hours creating resources to use in the classroom because there aren’t curriculums to use.

She has had two books that her students love and cause them to grow in the reading levels banned - Hatchet and Love that Dog.

She manages behaviors instead of teaching - again due to lack of resources.

She’s got a job that she loves - but constantly thinks about leaving the profession because of the damage it does to both her mental and physical health.

I’m sure there are teachers who would love to push some type of agenda.  But I don’t know who they are.  There are way more that come home at the end of the day exhausted like my wife.

My oldest two kids are at the most diverse school in the state.  They go to school with all races, genders, sexual identities, and everything else - both at the student and teacher level.

We have conversations about what they’re experiencing at school all the time - like weekly.  My wife and I believe that stuff like that isn’t the school’s job - it’s ours.  But, in all those conversations I can’t remember the last time where they were exposed to something in the classroom that my wife and I weren’t comfortable with - maybe a middle school extracurricular reading club selection?

Now one thing is true.  My kids are more compassionate and empathetic just by being present with people who aren’t like them.  I think this probably registers on some people’s scale as more “liberal”.  This would make some people uncomfortable.  I’m okay with it. I know the voices that speak into their lives. 
 

*edited to remove me quoting @BigK - made it look like I was responding directly to him - and this was more general observation 

[BigK]

@MacGyver The good teachers, like your wife, aren't getting the credit they deserve. The whack jobs we see on the news get all the attention. Like any group, the bad apples always spoil the barrel. 

[Luckyforward]

A few comments:

First, I see a LOT of teachers as a psychotherapist. My last patient today was a high school teacher.  All are dedicated to their students, all give MORE than 40 hours a week, and ALL are exhausted, and remain so.  The time that teachers spent trying to teach from home during COVID is something most have not fully recovered from.  This week TCAPs are about over, and every teacher over the last 6 weeks has felt the pressure of their principal and instructional coaches to "teach to the test" so the school's scores will be "good."  Teachers struggle with educating students, being there for them emotionally, and putting up with a lot of paperwork.  The time it takes to get grades in alone is overwhelming.  This being said, I do not know of a teacher who has the time, energy, drive, desire, or patience to "push" any kind of an agenda on their students.  Granted, I'm sure there are some out there, but the average teacher is just trying to get through the day, put out any "fires" that may occur, worry about their kids, and get home.  And one other ongoing fear that teachers have:  a school shooter.  This anxiety is not new; the worry about "what if" has occurred with teachers long before the Covenant tragedy.  It is a daily fear for our educators.

Mac, you stated that your kids are ". . . more compassionate and empathetic just by being present with people who aren't like them."  Nope, not liberal, just being human.  We used to be more like that as a country, and we have about lost the quality of accepting and appreciating another person just because of who they are as a human being and not because they are a "carbon copy" of myself.  All persons have value and worth.  All persons are created in the image of God.  I may not like or agree with someone, but I can respect them and their right to their place on this planet.

[gregintenn]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Let me offer this from personal experience - as someone who’s married to a teacher who was in one of those “liberal” school districts.

Even if there were some agenda to be pushed - there isn’t the time, will, or resource to push it.

She spent her days making sure her kids had enough to eat.  There’s no telling how many coats and pairs of shoes we’ve bought.

She spends her off hours creating resources to use in the classroom because there aren’t curriculums to use.

She has had two books that her students love and cause them to grow in the reading levels banned - Hatchet and Love that Dog.

She manages behaviors instead of teaching - again due to lack of resources.

She’s got a job that she loves - but constantly thinks about leaving the profession because of the damage it does to both her mental and physical health.

I’m sure there are teachers who would love to push some type of agenda.  But I don’t know who they are.  There are way more that come home at the end of the day exhausted like my wife.

My oldest two kids are at the most diverse school in the state.  They go to school with all races, genders, sexual identities, and everything else - both at the student and teacher level.

We have conversations about what they’re experiencing at school all the time - like weekly.  My wife and I believe that stuff like that isn’t the school’s job - it’s ours.  But, in all those conversations I can’t remember the last time where they were exposed to something in the classroom that my wife and I weren’t comfortable with - maybe a middle school extracurricular reading club selection?

Now one thing is true.  My kids are more compassionate and empathetic just by being present with people who aren’t like them.  I think this probably registers on some people’s scale as more “liberal”.  This would make some people uncomfortable.  I’m okay with it. I know the voices that speak into their lives. 
 

*edited to remove me quoting @BigK - made it look like I was responding directly to him - and this was more general observation 

Give your wife a big hug for us. I can’t imagine how difficult teaching would be for someone who actually cared and took pride in their job. No way I could do it!

I don’t see much agenda directly from teachers. What I see is it sprinkled into the curriculum. There isn’t much a teacher can do about that one way or the other. What the world really needs is a lot more decent parents.