school shooting in Nashville at the Covenant School

[gregintenn]

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

Dont get trolled.

…by Daniel.

[Snaveba]

2 hours ago, RED333 said:

So to say this in fewer words, "Evil people doing evil things with tools that are easy to get". More kids are killed with cars than guns, yet we do not talk about cars the way we talk about guns.

While more kids are killed “with cars” than guns, they are not killed intentionally and with malice, with cars. I agree guns are the easiest tool. What’s the saying “work smarter, not harder”. Evil will do what evil does. 

[Snaveba]

1 minute ago, gregintenn said:

…by Daniel.

I do think that the image posted has been shown to be fake. 

[NoBanStan]

15 minutes ago, Snaveba said:

I do think that the image posted has been shown to be fake. 

looks like your average Call of Duty player to me

[Grayfox54]

17 minutes ago, Snaveba said:

I do think that the image posted has been shown to be fake. 

I saw on another site where the person in the picture admitted that it was fake. Just click bait intended to piss people off.  

[MacGyver]

I want to remind and encourage everyone to interact with the community in way that adds to the overall community.

We can agree and disagree on all manner of things - but do it in good faith.

[gregintenn]

42 minutes ago, Snaveba said:

I do think that the image posted has been shown to be fake. 

I would expect so. Probably most of what you find on the internet is fake. What I said really had little to do with the meme.

[NoBanStan]

20 minutes ago, Snaveba said:

While more kids are killed “with cars” than guns, they are not killed intentionally and with malice, with cars. I agree guns are the easiest tool. What’s the saying “work smarter, not harder”. Evil will do what evil does. 

This, precisely.

and our society also has a lot to do with our "erosion". I know each of these is a DENSE topic... so try not to read into this too deeply, but here's my shorthand take on what's happening:

1. We kicked out God  - however you may feel about religion, it used to be at least some form of check/balance and a guardrail for how one should act or treat others. Not flawlessly mind you (because.... people)
2. We glorified violence - It's in every movie, every video game. No, I don't think that makes people killers (i'm a gamer), but it does lead to being desensitized and accept it
3. We accepted a Non-standard definition of family - I mean no offense to anyone by saying this, but a two parent household, who can cover both male and female viewpoints are crucial for society.
4. We wanted a free internet - This one is tough for me. I want free internet.... but we've now had a generation of kids who've grown up with access to EVERYTHING and most of the time that's without guidance. And they aren't looking up math problems
5. We drugged the population - I'm speaking Opioid, anti-depressant, etc. Big pharma and doctors started pushing pills on anyone. 100% there are people who need it, but not as many as they shelled out for a kick back
6. We took it easy on crime - We started looking at criminals as babies just down on their luck and not holding them accountable for their actions
7. We ignored those in need - Everyone (dem or rep) has ignored the margins when it comes to poverty, nobody actually goes into these impoverished communities and spends a penny to improve it. Needs lead to crime and eventually it's culture

8. We stopped seeing each other as people - Instead, we're enemies. If you don't believe what i believe, then we can't get along

There's more, but i'm tired of typing

[BigK]

8 minutes ago, NoBanStan said:

This, precisely.

and our society also has a lot to do with our "erosion". I know each of these is a DENSE topic... so try not to read into this too deeply, but here's my shorthand take on what's happening:

1. We kicked out God  - however you may feel about religion, it used to be at least some form of check/balance and a guardrail for how one should act or treat others. Not flawlessly mind you (because.... people)
2. We glorified violence - It's in every movie, every video game. No, I don't think that makes people killers (i'm a gamer), but it does lead to being desensitized and accept it
3. We accepted a Non-standard definition of family - I mean no offense to anyone by saying this, but a two parent household, who can cover both male and female viewpoints are crucial for society.
4. We wanted a free internet - This one is tough for me. I want free internet.... but we've now had a generation of kids who've grown up with access to EVERYTHING and most of the time that's without guidance. And they aren't looking up math problems
5. We drugged the population - I'm speaking Opioid, anti-depressant, etc. Big pharma and doctors started pushing pills on anyone. 100% there are people who need it, but not as many as they shelled out for a kick back
6. We took it easy on crime - We started looking at criminals as babies just down on their luck and not holding them accountable for their actions
7. We ignored those in need - Everyone (dem or rep) has ignored the margins when it comes to poverty, nobody actually goes into these impoverished communities and spends a penny to improve it. Needs lead to crime and eventually it's culture

8. We stopped seeing each other as people - Instead, we're enemies. If you don't believe what i believe, then we can't get along

There's more, but i'm tired of typing

Not to discount any of those points, but we're devolving as a society. The more we resemble a Godless society that doesn't effectively deter crime, can't disagree without hate, and actively dismantles families by punishing the married poor and incentivizing single motherhood, the worse it's going to get. 

[TGO David]

15 hours ago, BigK said:

I'm vehemently against red flag laws altogether because of due process. However, keeping crazies from buying guns is something I'm not so opposed to. I don't know the perfect formula for achieving that, but I hope it happens in a way that it could have prevented people like this nutjob from buying guns. 

See below...

15 hours ago, Daniel said:

It's almost as if we should have some way for people to receive care even if they can't afford it.  Some type of I dont know, government-provided health care.

I think we're so fixated upon the current state and result of things that we neglect to really follow the trail back to where it began.  As a result, we keep swinging at the symptoms by creating more laws in an attempt to stop activities that are already illegal.  So, let's look at how we got to where we are.

I know that discussion of the disintegration of the family unit and abandonment of Christian values as our national moral compass are things that some of us simply won't agree upon.  Fine.  I think they both have a role here, but we'll skip over them and go instead to the idea that the government should do something.

Prior to the 1950s, our country had state government funded mental hospitals.  As with any other medical treatment, it is easy to look back at the methods and protocols used in that era and accuse that they were crude, primitive, and sometimes cruel.  It is easy to say that from the vantage point of modern medicine, but the same can be said about literally any aspect of medicine when you compare what we have today to what they had then.

Choosing not to argue about the fact that what they had then was the best of their era, they still had a government funded approach to mental health which kept dangerous people off of the streets.  But then, in the 1960s, laws were changed to limit the ability of state and local officials to admit people into mental health hospitals.  This lead to budget cuts in both state and federal funding for mental health programs and, as a result, states across the country began closing and downsizing their psychiatric hospitals.

Since the 1950s, the number of beds in state psychiatric hospitals has declined by over 91 percent. As a result of this phenomenon, many state psychiatric hospitals that had once served thousands of patients every day are now either shuttered or, at best, so much smaller that they have to turn away more patients than they serve.

Now, we can argue whether gender dysphoria is a mental illness or not, but prior to 2012 it was considered as such.  As our society has become more progressive, the classification changed.  [source]

Maybe a mistake was made.  Several of the past mass killer events seem to suggest a correlation, at least.

 

14 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Nothing is going to change. The democrats had control of the House and Senate and didn't do anything. They will continue to threaten us with gun control every time this happens. 

The Republicans will continue to blame mental health then refuse to actually allocate funds for more treatment. 

 

You know what?  I'd vote 100% in favor of more government funding for mental health treatment, every damn day of the week, if we could get rid of some of the utter bull#### that our government funds today.

 

[lifsey54]

32 minutes ago, NoBanStan said:

This, precisely.

and our society also has a lot to do with our "erosion". I know each of these is a DENSE topic... so try not to read into this too deeply, but here's my shorthand take on what's happening:

1. We kicked out God  - however you may feel about religion, it used to be at least some form of check/balance and a guardrail for how one should act or treat others. Not flawlessly mind you (because.... people)
2. We glorified violence - It's in every movie, every video game. No, I don't think that makes people killers (i'm a gamer), but it does lead to being desensitized and accept it
3. We accepted a Non-standard definition of family - I mean no offense to anyone by saying this, but a two parent household, who can cover both male and female viewpoints are crucial for society.
4. We wanted a free internet - This one is tough for me. I want free internet.... but we've now had a generation of kids who've grown up with access to EVERYTHING and most of the time that's without guidance. And they aren't looking up math problems
5. We drugged the population - I'm speaking Opioid, anti-depressant, etc. Big pharma and doctors started pushing pills on anyone. 100% there are people who need it, but not as many as they shelled out for a kick back
6. We took it easy on crime - We started looking at criminals as babies just down on their luck and not holding them accountable for their actions
7. We ignored those in need - Everyone (dem or rep) has ignored the margins when it comes to poverty, nobody actually goes into these impoverished communities and spends a penny to improve it. Needs lead to crime and eventually it's culture

8. We stopped seeing each other as people - Instead, we're enemies. If you don't believe what i believe, then we can't get along

There's more, but i'm tired of typing

Well said.

[NoBanStan]

6 minutes ago, TGO David said:

You know what?  I'd vote 100% in favor of more government funding for mental health treatment, every damn day of the week, if we could get rid of some of the utter bull#### that our government funds today.

Agreed, but i would want to understand what's actually in that bill.

[Snaveba]

As I said in a previous post, I thank the members of this forum for the ability to have decent discussion about this. 

Maybe it is because we are all Tennesseans, and this event hits home, maybe it is because we know TGO David will swing the “Ban Hammer” if needed, or maybe it is because we care about each other, but this is healthy discussion, not a bunch of folks railing on one political side or the other as o the MO forum (mostly railing against one side). 

It has been a very hard week here in my world, and I give thanks that I feel comfortable expressing what is going on in this forum. 

[Erik88]

Does anyone know how other developed countries handle people with severe mental illness? Do they involuntarily commit these people? Asking because I genuinely don't know. 

 

[BigK]

15 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Does anyone know how other developed countries handle people with severe mental illness? Do they involuntarily commit these people? Asking because I genuinely don't know. 

I also have no clue what the rest of the world does with their crazies. However, looking at their gun policies, tax rates, socialist tendencies, and economic trends, I can't say I'd be willing to model anything after how they do things. I'm still curious too though.

Edited March 30, 2023 by BigK

[NoBanStan]

4 minutes ago, BigK said:

I also have no clue what the rest of the world does with their crazies. However, looking at their gun policies, tax rates, socialist tendencies, and economic trends, I can't say I'd be willing to model anything after how they do things.

I don't see any issue with consulting. Honestly, we SHOULD be looking at what works for others and then making an informed decision.

I feel like i know how that'll work though. The dems will just do it to push their agenda, the republicans won't look at all and assume they can do it better according to their agenda.

[bersaguy]

15 hours ago, Fourtyfive said:

I thought we already had red flag laws of some sort. When cancer took my son a few years ago I was depressed of course, but I was too afraid to see and talk to a psychiatrist. I had no feelings of hurting anyone, I was and still am the one hurting, but was afraid of being reported as a severely depressed person. I’m fine but I think of him every day of course. It’s a large hole in your life.

Back when I lost my oldest son to an auto accident I didn't get depressed but did have problems dealing with it and kind of climbed into a cocoon attitude. I still functioned as needed because I still had a younger son that needed a father and a wife that needed a husband. As time went on I was able to slowly climb out of the cocoon and be myself again. I still think about Doug Jr. everyday and sometimes I wonder what his life would have been today. Even though I was hurting for quite a while I never considered hurting anyone.

[Scotty]

Part of the problem with the lack of mental health services is directly due to... government involvement.

It has been a minute since I've read up on this topic, so I can't give the most articulate answer but in short it has to do with the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanterman–Petris–Short_Act.

The simplest explanation if memory serves me right is that Nixon passed this legislation when he was Gov. of CA prior to being president, and then ran with it once elected. The left viewed people being involuntarily committed against their will as a violation of "patient" (civil) rights, and the right... was all for it to save a couple of bucks. It truly was the perfect example of bipartisan legislation that allowed both parties to claim a victory, all while severely handicapping generations to come. Reagan doubled-down on closing more facilities later as well. 

 

Again, it's been probably since college when I read into this, once in awhile I'll hear it brought up on a podcast by someone far more well versed than I. But in summary to the best of my knowledge it was a time in the 60's when civil rights were center stage, and the D's wanted to show their humanity in not keeping people hospitalized against their will, and the R's were more than happy to claim victory on saving taxpayer money. I also have appreciated how this thread and forum stay away from politics and merely mention party lines as it shows this is a failure of government as a whole to protect it's own citizens. 

 

The fact that there's a 3-6 month wait for mental health providers on something like basic counseling, and the fact that if therapy is needed even on a biweekly basis the costs could possibly be 10% of the median households post tax earnings is a whole different subject. 

 

A quick google search shows that most of the recent articles about the LPS act are referencing the homelessness and mental health crisis out west https://californiaglobe.com/articles/state-auditors-report-shows-lanterman-act-reform-is-badly-needed/.

[lifsey54]

1 hour ago, bersaguy said:

Back when I lost my oldest son to an auto accident I didn't get depressed but did have problems dealing with it and kind of climbed into a cocoon attitude. I still functioned as needed because I still had a younger son that needed a father and a wife that needed a husband. As time went on I was able to slowly climb out of the cocoon and be myself again. I still think about Doug Jr. everyday and sometimes I wonder what his life would have been today. Even though I was hurting for quite a while I never considered hurting anyone.

Sorry for your loss, and hope you're doing better now.

[gregintenn]

The mental health issue is a tough one. There are obviously many people who simply shouldn’t be walking around in public. My concern is who gets to make that decision. There are no doubt many folks who’d put me in an asylum if they could. Some of these folks happen to be elected officials. I wish I knew the solution. If it were easy, I guess it wouldn’t still be a problem.

[BigK]

21 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

The mental health issue is a tough one. There are obviously many people who simply shouldn’t be walking around in public. My concern is who gets to make that decision. There are no doubt many folks who’d put me in an asylum if they could. Some of these folks happen to be elected officials. I wish I knew the solution. If it were easy, I guess it wouldn’t still be a problem.

exactly!! ask 2 people's opinions and you'll get 3 answers

[AuEagle]

[Chucktshoes]

5 hours ago, TGO David said:

See below...

I think we're so fixated upon the current state and result of things that we neglect to really follow the trail back to where it began.  As a result, we keep swinging at the symptoms by creating more laws in an attempt to stop activities that are already illegal.  So, let's look at how we got to where we are.

I know that discussion of the disintegration of the family unit and abandonment of Christian values as our national moral compass are things that some of us simply won't agree upon.  Fine.  I think they both have a role here, but we'll skip over them and go instead to the idea that the government should do something.

Prior to the 1950s, our country had state government funded mental hospitals.  As with any other medical treatment, it is easy to look back at the methods and protocols used in that era and accuse that they were crude, primitive, and sometimes cruel.  It is easy to say that from the vantage point of modern medicine, but the same can be said about literally any aspect of medicine when you compare what we have today to what they had then.

Choosing not to argue about the fact that what they had then was the best of their era, they still had a government funded approach to mental health which kept dangerous people off of the streets.  But then, in the 1960s, laws were changed to limit the ability of state and local officials to admit people into mental health hospitals.  This lead to budget cuts in both state and federal funding for mental health programs and, as a result, states across the country began closing and downsizing their psychiatric hospitals.

Since the 1950s, the number of beds in state psychiatric hospitals has declined by over 91 percent. As a result of this phenomenon, many state psychiatric hospitals that had once served thousands of patients every day are now either shuttered or, at best, so much smaller that they have to turn away more patients than they serve.

Now, we can argue whether gender dysphoria is a mental illness or not, but prior to 2012 it was considered as such.  As our society has become more progressive, the classification changed.  [source]

Maybe a mistake was made.  Several of the past mass killer events seem to suggest a correlation, at least.

 

You know what?  I'd vote 100% in favor of more government funding for mental health treatment, every damn day of the week, if we could get rid of some of the utter bull#### that our government funds today.

 

 

[Alleycat72]

8 hours ago, gregintenn said:

…by Daniel.

 

[Links2k]

I’ve wondered for two days, what would be the reaction if a legally armed teacher/administrator/ custodian/parent shoots a kid during an active shooter situation?  

I don’t have an answer. I just don’t see arming staff as a viable solution. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Links2k