10 Millimeter as Home defense?

[willis68]

I have been thinking of using my Glock 20SF as a home defense pistol. I do not have to worry about over penetration as the way my house is set up and not close enough to another home for concern. I have a 21SF that now sits by my bed for when things go bump in the night. I will not carry the 10 mil G20SF as I am too concerned it will be considered overkill if god forbid I ever have to use it. I think it will make an excellent home defense pistol and my Surfeire light and pressure switch for my 21SF fit right on it. The benefit of 15 rounds has me thinking about it, what do you guys think? If I decide to do this I will keep it loaded with Hornady 10MM 200 GR HP/XTP.

Edited April 1, 2009 by willis68

[DWARREN123]

If you feel comfortable with it and can use it to good effect then go for it.

[Seaslug]

The real question is, since you already own it, why would you NOT use it for home defense? Given that you've already stated that you're not concerned about the potential for overpenetration, what else is stopping you?

BTW, I have no problem CCing my 10mm G29. I believe in carrying the most powerful caliber that you can effectively control, and I'm more concerned about stopping any potential threat as quickly as possible than I am about being accused of "overkill". Just my $0.02...

[TN9mm]

I have my 9mm ready at all times, in case the SHTF, but if I have a few extra seconds... my choice would be to go with the 12ga in a home defense situation.

#1 Buck shot = 16 .30 Cal Pellets flying at you @ 1250 fps = a devistating hit given the same wound track of ANY caliber handgun.

I would much rather have the 9mm or 10mm for that matter as a back up for the 12 ga just in case I have to become captian underpants @ 2am. But if there is no time to get the shot gun the 9mm it is, and I can fight back to 12ga. So if it is specific for home defense I'd go with the 12ga over ANY handgun period. Your milage may vary.

[willis68]

The real question is, since you already own it, why would you NOT use it for home defense? Given that you've already stated that you're not concerned about the potential for overpenetration, what else is stopping you?

BTW, I have no problem CCing my 10mm G29. I believe in carrying the most powerful caliber that you can effectively control, and I'm more concerned about stopping any potential threat as quickly as possible than I am about being accused of "overkill". Just my $0.02...

I have several handguns, if I wanted to carry the Most effective it would be my 44 mag. I have been advised by several LEO's and attorneys that a 45 ACP is the most powerful round that I should carry as far as being accepable for self defense. I am just not sure if the same would apply to home defense.

[willis68]

I have my 9mm ready at all times, in case the SHTF, but if I have a few extra seconds... my choice would be to go with the 12ga in a home defense situation.

#1 Buck shot = 16 .30 Cal Pellets flying at you @ 1250 fps = a devistating hit given the same wound track of ANY caliber handgun.

I would much rather have the 9mm or 10mm for that matter as a back up for the 12 ga just in case I have to become captian underpants @ 2am. But if there is no time to get the shot gun the 9mm it is, and I can fight back to 12ga. So if it is specific for home defense I'd go with the 12ga over ANY handgun period. Your milage may vary.

I already have the 12 Gauge loaded with .00 Buck ready, I agree with you on that one my handgun will be the first thing I can access quickly

[TN9mm]

I already have the 12 Gauge loaded with .00 Buck ready

I could tell you were a smart man willis68 carry on.....

[Seaslug]

I have several handguns, if I wanted to carry the Most effective it would be my 44 mag. I have been advised by several LEO's and attorneys that a 45 ACP is the most powerful round that I should carry as far as being accepable for self defense. I am just not sure if the same would apply to home defense.

Not trying to be smart, but it sounds like those LEO's and attorneys just like to hear themselves talk. There is absolutely no legal precedent that I can find where someone was convicted of a bad shoot simply because of the caliber that they used. The rules for the use of deadly force in a self-defense situation are always the same, regardless of the size of your bore.

To further illustrate my point, you've already acknowledged that you've got a 12 ga. shotgun loaded with '00 buck as your primary HD gun (good choice, btw). This is going to be far more destructive at combat distance than any of your handguns, so why are you not worried about THAT being overkill?

Oh, and I'd kinda like to see you carry that .44 mag...

[willis68]

Not trying to be smart, but it sounds like those LEO's and attorneys just like to hear themselves talk. There is absolutely no legal precedent that I can find where someone was convicted of a bad shoot simply because of the caliber that they used. The rules for the use of deadly force in a self-defense situation are always the same, regardless of the size of your bore.

To further illustrate my point, you've already acknowledged that you've got a 12 ga. shotgun loaded with '00 buck as your primary HD gun (good choice, btw). This is going to be far more destructive at combat distance than any of your handguns, so why are you not worried about THAT being overkill?

Oh, and I'd kinda like to see you carry that .44 mag...

A shotgun is no problem as home defense, the 44 mag I have is this one and designed to be carried,

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=45957&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15714&isFirearm=Y

People have been using 12 gauge shotguns for home defense longer than I have been alive. If you were correct about no cases of 10 mill being considered extreme, that would be great I would love to carry the round with the penetration the 10 mill has. However I know for a fact that there was a case documented on TV , I think dateline, where a person shot a 10 mil round through a 1911 in self defense and was prosecuted for it. What hurt the person who was charged was the fact that they considered the 10 mil excessive force, as would be the case with a .44 magnum. By the same token In my opinion it would be irresponsible for me to carry it when it may involve me shooting around other people who could potentially be in danger due to over penetration.

Edited April 1, 2009 by willis68

[Seaslug]

A shotgun is no problem as home defense, the 44 mag I have is this one and designed to be carried,

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=45957&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15714&isFirearm=Y

People have been using 12 gauge shotguns for home defense longer than I have been alive. If you were correct about no cases of 10 mill being considered extreme, that would be great I would love to carry the round with the penetration the 10 mill has. However I know for a fact that there was a case documented on TV where a person shot a 10 mil round through a 1911 in self defense and was prosecuted for it. What hurt the person who was charged was the fact that they considered the 10 mil excessive force, as would be the case with a .44 magnum. By the same token In my opinion it would be irresponsible for me to carry it when it may involve me shooting around other people who could potentially be in danger due over penetration.

This is no reflection on you, but I have a hard time believing this to be true. If it happened at all, there is almost certainly more to the story than an otherwise justifiable shoot being labeled as "excessive force" simply because the shooter used a 10mm. Do you have any sort of link or other information that I might search to find out more about this case?

Also, I completely respect your concerns about the potential for overpenetration in a self-defense shooting outside the home. This is something with which I struggled for some time before I purchased my G29. Ultimately, I decided that I could trust my ability to be aware of my target and what's beyond my target before pulling the trigger, should I ever find myself in that situation (God forbid). I also practice double-taps and rapid fire as often as I can to make sure that I maintain my ability to overpower the recoil and keep my follow-up shots on target. After all, fliers are even worse than overpenetration.

[Punisher84]

I think he's referring to the Harold Fish case. He shot his attacker with a 10mm Glock. The caliber was brought up in court, but his attorney was to ignorant to defend it properly and there were other circumstances that I, as well as others here, feel led to his conviction.

Willis, carry what you feel comfortable with, but don't believe every LEO and attorney you talk to because, with a few exceptions, most of them don't know what they hell they are talking about.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

There is not problem with carrying the 10mm, yes.. I am sure that someone is going to bring up that the FBI used it for 5 years. But then went to the .40S&W, but they didn't give up on the 10mm because of what a lot of folks believe to be the truth, being that the 1076 had problems.. at first yes, but because there was a design flaw in the decocker, which S&W fixed. The real reason that they went to the .40S&W was two fold. First, the bean counters that they were hiring were not what you would call mostly shooter savay and had a hard time learning the weapon. Mainly women and smaller guys that were not brought up around firearms and had not learned the proper ways of shooting at an early age. Many that came into the Acadamy would complain of the recoil. Secondly, there was a dispute, Glock. Glock thought that they were going to get a contract with the Feds, but S&W won the bid. But in time, under politcal pressure, the FBI returned the 1076's back in to S&W under warranty with credit returned to the FBI from S&W. AT which time S&W did offer agents the ability to buy the pistols back. (Notice, the FBI usually does not release dept weapons out for sale to the general public and are distroyed at the FBI Gun Vault). Most agents didn't want to return their issued 1076 and recieve a Glock. And many agents were pressured to turn them in with severe punishment if they didn't do so. To the point of withholding their check if they didn't do so.

I firmly believe that even today, if the situation was a little different, the FBI would still be using the 10mm.

There isn't anything wrong with using the 10mm.. I do. The real man's "man gun"!

[Seaslug]

I think he's referring to the Harold Fish case. He shot his attacker with a 10mm Glock. The caliber was brought up in court, but his attorney was to ignorant to defend it properly and there were other circumstances that I, as well as others here, feel led to his conviction.

Willis, carry what you feel comfortable with, but don't believe every LEO and attorney you talk to because, with a few exceptions, most of them don't know what they hell they are talking about.

Just educated myself on the case. It certainly appears that Mr. Fish's justification for the use of deadly force was at issue, and not the caliber that he used. The prosecutors only mentioned that his 10mm was "more powerful than guns the police used" as an aggravating factor.

[Punisher84]

Just educated myself on the case. It certainly appears that Mr. Fish's justification for the use of deadly force was at issue, and not the caliber that he used. The prosecutors only mentioned that his 10mm was "more powerful than guns the police used" as an aggravating factor.

Yea that case was a fiasco on both sides of the court. His lawyer was not equipped to handle the case properly on firearms law it seemed and the prosecutor was really out to get this guy, but some bad judgements on Mr. Fish's part is what I think ultimately made him look guilty.

[willis68]

This is no reflection on you, but I have a hard time believing this to be true. If it happened at all, there is almost certainly more to the story than an otherwise justifiable shoot being labeled as "excessive force" simply because the shooter used a 10mm. Do you have any sort of link or other information that I might search to find out more about this case?

Also, I completely respect your concerns about the potential for overpenetration in a self-defense shooting outside the home. This is something with which I struggled for some time before I purchased my G29. Ultimately, I decided that I could trust my ability to be aware of my target and what's beyond my target before pulling the trigger, should I ever find myself in that situation (God forbid). I also practice double-taps and rapid fire as often as I can to make sure that I maintain my ability to overpower the recoil and keep my follow-up shots on target. After all, fliers are even worse than overpenetration.

I agree with you. I am very proficient with the 45 after years of practicing. Once I get more aquatinted with the 10 mil,I really like the 20SF, I will more than likely carry it in the winter. I have shot several thousand 45 rounds but only around 50 of the 10 mil. I think the one I saw was a 1911 Wilson Combat 10 mil CQB, it has been a few years ago when this was on TV so it may have been the Glock that was refereed to on here. At the end of the day any round used in self defense can get you prosecuted. When I get more familiar several more range trips I will be as comfortable as I am with the 45. Whenever a Hotter more powerful load is used than the police carry, there will be something more to defend.

[willis68]

The fact that a few of you guys carry the 10 mil is comforting to me. I really like the round and once I get very comfortable with it I will definitely carry it.

[Guest Matchguy]

Not trying to be smart, but it sounds like those LEO's and attorneys just like to hear themselves talk. There is absolutely no legal precedent that I can find where someone was convicted of a bad shoot simply because of the caliber that they used. The rules for the use of deadly force in a self-defense situation are always the same, regardless of the size of your bore......"

Willis68:

I agree that I've never heard of anyone being convicted of criminal wrongdoing merely because of the caliber of firearm used in a defensive shooting. Stated a little differently, I cannot see where the caliber of your firearm has any bearing on whether a shooting was a legitimate defensive shooting or an unlawful shooting. And while I agree that those folks SeaSlug mentioned probably do indeed like to hear themselves talk, their greater failure was in failing to explain the effect of the caliber of your gun in a civil case as opposed to a criminal case. Here's what I mean.

Civil cases are determined by the preponderance of evidence, so they are all about credibility in front of a jury. Each side does its best to paint the other side in the worst possible light. If you shoot someone in self defense, the odds are that you are going to be sued, period. And in that suit, with megabucks at issue, the counsel for the plaintiff is going to try his best to make you look as much like a calloused, heartless, gun-crazed, zealot-with-no-respect-for-human-life as he possibly can....and as part of this he can be expected to attack your caliber as overkill, as he will also attack its bullet construction and any modifications you might have made to the gun to "make it more deadly"......such as improved sights, a better trigger pull, etc., etc. So yes, caliber can be used against you....but please read on.

The good news is that you have an attorney too, and if you have any sense at all you've hired one with a background in gun related civil cases, and hopefully one who is an avid shooter and defender of our Second Amendment rights. If so, he will have very effective retorts to all of these adverse points rendered by opposition counsel......and really, they are old hat in these cases, and can neutralize them without it doing any harm to your case.

My concern with the 10mm would be overpenetration into another room, which you indicated is not a problem for you, and flash. Given the large powder capacity of the 10mm case, I personally would want to test my defensive load in low light sometime to make sure I won't be blinded by my own gun....never good.

The idea in a civil case, since credibility is crucial, is never to give the other side any ammunition to use against you. And in this case, providing you've gotten yourself a credible lawyer as I described above, and in the absence of any doubt about the lawfulness of the shooting itself, I really can't see where you're giving the opposition anything they can run with merely by using a 10mm.

I think this is probably the framework in which the LEO's and lawyers were commenting on when they talked to you about it. Hope this helps.

MG

PS....I can see where, in a murder case for instance, the caliber of arm could possibly be used by prosecutors to try to help establish intent to commit murder, or to establish whether it was murder vs. manslaughter, but that is completely outside of what we're talking about here, which is the legitimate defense of innocent life, and is a pretty complicated issue.....one for another day.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Matchguy

[Guest bkelm18]

Sweet baby jesus, they make a 20SF? Dang. I had a G20 briefly and carried it from time to time. I think a 10mm is perfectly acceptable for defense, regardless of what the lawyers and lawyer wannabes say.

[willis68]

Thanks for your comments guys,I appreciate them. I should have titled this thread Carrying a 10 Mil, as that is the information that I am really looking for. This has been quite informative for me as I am not that familiar with the 10 Mil, After shooting 50 rounds of 200 Grain Hornady through my Glock 20SF, I have to say that it is truly superior to the 45acp, and definitely a mans gun, I like it very much

[Punisher84]

Good stuff!

[DaveTN]

I have been advised by several LEO's and attorneys that a 45 ACP is the most powerful round that I should carry as far as being accepable for self defense. I am just not sure if the same would apply to home defense.

Now you know not to ask those guys LEO or Lawyer questions.

[Guest Jennings382]

I think you should use the 10mm. I mean you'll end up killing something with that.

[Guest Tennessee Jed]

I'm a recent convert to the G20 for home and carry. After doing some research on 10mm ballistics, and learning that, in 4 layer denim gelatin tests, the DoubleTap 165 grain Gold Dot expanded to 1.02" and penetrated to 14.25", I was sold. After shooting 100 rounds through the pistol, I was even more sold. It's easily the most accurate pistol I've ever owned.

I was concerned it might be too big to conceal, but I got the M-Tac IWB from Comp Tac, and it conceals just fine. This is a very comfortable holster as well.

[alwaysoutdoors]

Why would you not use one with good bullets like Federal Hydra Shoks or something made for stopping/neutralizing someone?

I love the 10mm round.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Actually the Gold Dots have a better performance evaluation results over the Hydra Shock. When the HS's first came out.. they were the thing to have, but bullet designs have passed them buy.