Mesh Router without cloud dependence?

[maroonandwhite]

A comment on another thread has led me to reevaluate my home network.  I’m currently using a Motorola Q11 mesh router system pulling internet from my Starlink modem.  The Starlink router functionality is fairly basic and lacks some features I’d like. (Guest Networks, QoS, etc).
 To my knowledge, the Q11 sends most of my info to a cloud server that holds all of the settings.

Does anyone have recommendations on a mesh router system that is less dependent on a cloud server?  Maybe that ship has sailed…..

[krunchnik]

I have a TP-Link mesh system that up until a week or so ago I was using-that I believe doesn't use cloud server settings-

I installed their software on my tablet and didn't believe it went anywhere but a local machine-

[NoBanStan]

Ubiquti has some nice products. not the cheapest though.

[NoBanStan]

Wrote that after an exhausting day rebuilding a fence, so let me provide a bit more.

https://www.amplifi.com/instant

Their Amplifi line is meant for home applications. I hear they're good, though I'm not sure about the admin interface. if it's anything like my Ubiquiti Dream Machine, you need to have some networking background. It's not Cisco level, but it's not the paint-by-numbers Linksys interface.

[JeffL]

16 minutes ago, NoBanStan said:

Wrote that after an exhausting day rebuilding a fence, so let me provide a bit more.

https://www.amplifi.com/instant

Their Amplifi line is meant for home applications. I hear they're good, though I'm not sure about the admin interface. if it's anything like my Ubiquiti Dream Machine, you need to have some networking background. It's not Cisco level, but it's not the paint-by-numbers Linksys interface.

I've got an Amplifi Alien. It is capable of mesh, but in my 2 story 2500sq ft house one unit provides excellent coverage.

[NoBanStan]

Just now, JeffL said:

I've got an Amplifi Alien. It is capable of mesh, but in my 2 story 2500sq ft house one unit provides excellent coverage.

I wanted an Alien but when I was shopping, it was just announced.  I would need two because i only allow 5ghz in my house

Instead I went with the Dream Machine and and one AC Pro AP. No wifi 6 though which stinks, but it's still plenty powerful.

[maroonandwhite]

49 minutes ago, JeffL said:

I've got an Amplifi Alien. It is capable of mesh, but in my 2 story 2500sq ft house one unit provides excellent coverage.

Nice! I haven’t even thought about just using a single unit. I only have a single story 1600 sq ft area. The Starlink router does a decent job but loses some strength in the extreme corner of the living room.  The Alien is priced decent enough as well.

[NoBanStan]

If you pick one up, give us a review. I like my gear but I have some pretty heavy speed loss on my AP (could be the model of AP). I'm 600 down/400 up and even with the wired AP, the other  side of the house gets around 300/200. Not unlivable by any means, but seems wasteful.

[maroonandwhite]

I'm kind of of thinking if I'm gonna spend over $400 for a router, I need to go ahead and find a Wifi 6E capable model.  They are all just so ugly......

[maroonandwhite]

I've also wondered if a lot of my issues with the previous router were more to do with devices not switching nodes consistently rather than and actual issue with the message system itself.  One single, more powerful router would hopefully alleviate those issues.

[TNMTBik3r]

I'm a big fan of Asus routers. You can do mesh with most of their models, either wired or wireless backhaul (connectivity between the two, wired is better).

I don't use the AI-Mesh config because I had some trouble with a few legacy wireless clients although it was mainly around the shared 2.4 and 5GHz SSID and not the actual mesh setup. I just use both "routers" in access point mode (using a different / dedicated firewall as my router).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BJHS3X7/

Edited March 6, 2023 by TNMTBik3r

[NoBanStan]

Asus is what I left. I liked it, but the coverage wasn't great. It also randomly had to be factory reset.  It would lock up or just stop working. That's with and without firmware updates.

[NoBanStan]

17 minutes ago, maroonandwhite said:

I'm kind of of thinking if I'm gonna spend over $400 for a router, I need to go ahead and find a Wifi 6E capable model.  They are all just so ugly......

hah. it's like electric cars.

oh and the alien is 6 of course.

*edit* nvm, you said "E"

Edited March 6, 2023 by NoBanStan

[billmeek]

I do IT support for a living.  For home or small business, I don't use anything other than Ubiquiti.  

One customer was "burning up" a router/wifi combo every 6 months.  He's in a metal building.  It didn't matter what brand or quality of a home class router he bought.  Several years ago I replaced it with an Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X and an Ubiquiti access point.  Other than the 1 time his dog chewed up the cable running to the AP, he's not had a single problem since.  His EdgeRouter may be old and no longer sold, but it chugs along fine.

All of my network gear here is Ubiquiti.  I have a Dream Machine Pro, 48-port POE switch, a couple of different access points and 2 of the mesh APs (that are hard wired rather than mesh).  Yeah, it's probably way overkill.  Buy my network is my work's life-blood as I primarily do remote support.

One thing you might find interesting is my slightly older HD access point beat a new Asus gaming router (with wifi 6) my friend purchased when transferring large files over wifi.  His will initially burst faster, but the stability of my network beats it out on large downloads.  For me, consistency and reliability trumps speed.

I do a lot of wifi calling using my iPhones as it's more reliable than the cellular connection.  The handover between access points is seamless with Ubiquiti APs as long as they are setup as the same network (the default configuration).  If you decide to buy something other than Ubiquiti and seamless roaming is important to you, be sure to check reviews.

Just a FYI, I've not used the Ubiquiti Amplifi gear.  Everything I'm supporting is Unifi line.  Several customers are using the Dream Machine (not the Pro).  Unless they are in a larger building, most don't even have to use an additional AP.

To date, I've not had a single piece of Ubiquiti hardware fail.  I have had some other issues (i.e. a rare reset required) on a couple of units and have updated some old gear to newer/faster hardware to take advantage of faster Internet speeds now available. In my opinion, the Ubiquiti hardware is worth the extra expense.

[maroonandwhite]

11 minutes ago, billmeek said:

I do IT support for a living.  For home or small business, I don't use anything other than Ubiquiti.  

One customer was "burning up" a router/wifi combo every 6 months.  He's in a metal building.  It didn't matter what brand or quality of a home class router he bought.  Several years ago I replaced it with an Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X and an Ubiquiti access point.  Other than the 1 time his dog chewed up the cable running to the AP, he's not had a single problem since.  His EdgeRouter may be old and no longer sold, but it chugs along fine.

All of my network gear here is Ubiquiti.  I have a Dream Machine Pro, 48-port POE switch, a couple of different access points and 2 of the mesh APs (that are hard wired rather than mesh).  Yeah, it's probably way overkill.  Buy my network is my work's life-blood as I primarily do remote support.

One thing you might find interesting is my slightly older HD access point beat a new Asus gaming router (with wifi 6) my friend purchased when transferring large files over wifi.  His will initially burst faster, but the stability of my network beats it out on large downloads.  For me, consistency and reliability trumps speed.

I do a lot of wifi calling using my iPhones as it's more reliable than the cellular connection.  The handover between access points is seamless with Ubiquiti APs as long as they are setup as the same network (the default configuration).  If you decide to buy something other than Ubiquiti and seamless roaming is important to you, be sure to check reviews.

Just a FYI, I've not used the Ubiquiti Amplifi gear.  Everything I'm supporting is Unifi line.  Several customers are using the Dream Machine (not the Pro).  Unless they are in a larger building, most don't even have to use an additional AP.

To date, I've not had a single piece of Ubiquiti hardware fail.  I have had some other issues (i.e. a rare reset required) on a couple of units and have updated some old gear to newer/faster hardware to take advantage of faster Internet speeds now available. In my opinion, the Ubiquiti hardware is worth the extra expense.

Thanks for the info!  I am also looking at the dream machines. I am working from home full time as well now.  Starlink is my ISP so while my speeds aren’t super amazing, I do feel like I could benefit from a quality router.  Also, having QoS and guest network capabilities are growing more important to me with the limited bandwidth.  All of the friends that came over to watch the superbowl ended up watching TikTok and bumping my 4K stream down. 

[billmeek]

If you didn't need QOS/guest network, I'd suggest you just get a Starlink Mesh Node to extend your network reach. 

Question: do you have your Starlink router setup in bridge mode (bypass mode)?  While double NAT won't hurt you in most instances, you may run into issues especially if you need to remotely access devices on your network.  The other thing is you might currently have the 2 wireless networks on the same channels causing interference.

[maroonandwhite]

1 minute ago, billmeek said:

If you didn't need QOS/guest network, I'd suggest you just get a Starlink Mesh Node to extend your network reach. 

Question: do you have your Starlink router setup in bridge mode (bypass mode)?  While double NAT won't hurt you in most instances, you may run into issues especially if you need to remotely access devices on your network.  The other thing is you might currently have the 2 wireless networks on the same channels causing interference.

Nah I did have it in bypass mode when running the Motorola Q11 system.  I’ve since went back to the Starlink router only due to some perceived handoff issues between nodes.  I actually thought Starlink equipment would do a guest network and was surprised to find out that it didn’t.

If the built in speed tests are accurate, I’m actually losing a good bit of data speeds through either the routers. 

[NoBanStan]

48 minutes ago, maroonandwhite said:

Thanks for the info!  I am also looking at the dream machines. I am working from home full time as well now.  Starlink is my ISP so while my speeds aren’t super amazing, I do feel like I could benefit from a quality router.  Also, having QoS and guest network capabilities are growing more important to me with the limited bandwidth.  All of the friends that came over to watch the superbowl ended up watching TikTok and bumping my 4K stream down. 

You allow tiktok on your network? I kid but i don't. that crap is blocked at the Stan household.

If it were me, i would try the alien first to see if i like it and if it meets your needs. As for the dream machine, here are my thoughts

-The DM Pro is cool if you plan to use cameras, outside of that, it may be overkill if you're a normal "user". It's also going to cost more
-The DM has what you're after, guest networks, QOS. etc.
-Wifi scheduling sucks on it. I have the kids on a specific SSID with parental blocks. I wanted to shut their wifi off around midnight. It works fine on the DM itself but since i have multiple VLANS and SSIDs, when it flips on, it just turns off my AP's signal all together.
-As mentioned previously, the unifi interface will take some getting used to, as it is intended for small/medium business. It's not going to hold your hand.
-By default, any SSID you create will be on 2.4 and 5ghz. Your devices will likely always select 2.4 which will be significantly slower, because it's a stronger signal. You can tell the devices to "prefer 5ghz", but that's not "enforce". So the best way for me was to have 2.4 on a dedicated SSID and if I really needed it, i would enable that (in case family/friends come over with a kids tablet or something. Everything else is 5ghz
-I blacklisted all of the embargoed countries along with China and Russia. it's super simple in the interface
-You can enable IDS or IPS. I have IPS enabled on the most restrictive and have never had a problem.
-My guest network actually has a Eula that states I'm going to take all of your data and you owe me $50 a day.... odd that nobody ever reads it and just clicks accept

Speaking of guest network, that's a fun setup. Looks a little different than this now but it's got a cool level of customization (no, this isn't my network)

 

[maroonandwhite]

2 minutes ago, NoBanStan said:

You allow tiktok on your network? I kid but i don't. that crap is blocked at the Stan household.

If it were me, i would try the alien first to see if i like it and if it meets your needs. As for the dream machine, here are my thoughts

-The DM Pro is cool if you plan to use cameras, outside of that, it may be overkill if you're a normal "user". It's also going to cost more
-The DM has what you're after, guest networks, QOS. etc.
-Wifi scheduling sucks on it. I have the kids on a specific SSID with parental blocks. I wanted to shut their wifi off around midnight. It works fine on the DM itself but since i have multiple VLANS and SSIDs, when it flips on, it just turns off my AP's signal all together.
-As mentioned previously, the unifi interface will take some getting used to, as it is intended for small/medium business. It's not going to hold your hand.
-By default, any SSID you create will be on 2.4 and 5ghz. Your devices will likely always select 2.4 which will be significantly slower, because it's a stronger signal. You can tell the devices to "prefer 5ghz", but that's not "enforce". So the best way for me was to have 2.4 on a dedicated SSID and if I really needed it, i would enable that (in case family/friends come over with a kids tablet or something. Everything else is 5ghz
-I blacklisted all of the embargoed countries along with China and Russia. it's super simple in the interface
-You can enable IDS or IPS. I have IPS enabled on the most restrictive and have never had a problem.
-My guest network actually has a Eula that states I'm going to take all of your data and you owe me $50 a day.... odd that nobody ever reads it and just clicks accept

Speaking of guest network, that's a fun setup. Looks a little different than this now but it's got a cool level of customization (no, this isn't my network)

 

Man, that is seriously cool!  I am looking for more advanced features for sure and am realizing now I should have my network better protected.

When my phone friends come over asking for the Wi-Fi password, I can say “sure, but TikTok won’t work. ”. Alien it is!

[NoBanStan]

6 minutes ago, maroonandwhite said:

Man, that is seriously cool!  I am looking for more advanced features for sure and am realizing now I should have my network better protected.

When my phone friends come over asking for the Wi-Fi password, I can say “sure, but TikTok won’t work. ”. Alien it is!

Do your reading on the alien, but that's what i would try. I can't promise you it has these enterprise features. Make sure first.

[NoBanStan]

quick reading says that the mobile app is the preferred method of admin for the Alien

https://help.amplifi.com/hc/en-us/articles/218562288-Enabling-a-Guest-Network in example

[maroonandwhite]

2 minutes ago, NoBanStan said:

quick reading says that the mobile app is the preferred method of admin for the Alien

https://help.amplifi.com/hc/en-us/articles/218562288-Enabling-a-Guest-Network in example

I’m currently searching for the full manual online now!

Best Buy actually has them for $279. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by maroonandwhite

[maroonandwhite]

Still reading,  it I think the Unifi ecosystem is actually what I’m wanting. I’d hate to miss out on Wi-Fi 6 but it looks like the Amplifi series just barely has the advanced features I’m after. 

[maroonandwhite]

While I wait for a Dream Machine to come in stock, I decided to go ahead and order an Alien. Worst case, I can use it as a dedicated camping router or gift it to the in-laws if I end up replacing it with a UDM. 

[billmeek]

2 hours ago, NoBanStan said:

The DM Pro is cool if you plan to use cameras, outside of that, it may be overkill if you're a normal "user". It's also going to cost more

The main reason I went with the DM pro is better throughput with a gigabit fiber connection with a lot of the security features turned on AND for the fail-over WAN (Internet). The fiber is my main connection but I also have a cable modem as a backup.

As reliable as my fiber has been lately, I want to get one of the UniFi LTE and cancel the cable.