When hesitation almost gets you killed

[crc4]

This is a disturbing video. It shows police officers' failure to act timely and appropriately in a deadly force encounter. That failure almost cost an officer his life. 

Body Cam - Disturbance Call Leads To Officer Being Attacked

Pleading and begging don't work. Talking does not take the place of action. Back peddling as these officers did could have easily resulted in deadly dangers to civilians.

This is a great example of failures in training and common sense. Don't be like these officers.

 

[pop pop]

Sad situation. 

[crc4]

35 minutes ago, pop pop said:

Sad situation. 

Yes, it is on so many levels. The cop who was attacked shouldn't be allowed to continue. He's mentally toast as a street cop and I can't imagine anyone who would want to partner with him.

Both cops showed ineptitude.

[Pain103]

5 hours ago, crc4 said:

Yes, it is on so many levels. The cop who was attacked shouldn't be allowed to continue. He's mentally toast as a street cop and I can't imagine anyone who would want to partner with him.

Both cops showed ineptitude.

It is a double edge sword. You arrive and immediately neutralize a deadly threat people and the media slam you for not deescalating or say your trigger happy.  You hesitate to try deescalating and hopefully talk people down from that edge they are on it can either work to resolve situation with no deadly force or bite you in the backside if they chose to keep on. 

[crc4]

9 hours ago, Pain103 said:

It is a double edge sword. You arrive and immediately neutralize a deadly threat people and the media slam you for not deescalating or say your trigger happy.  You hesitate to try deescalating and hopefully talk people down from that edge they are on it can either work to resolve situation with no deadly force or bite you in the backside if they chose to keep on. 

I understand what you are saying. But the media and general public haven't any idea of the concept of threat resistance and the necessary use of force response by police to that resistance.

Deadly threat people should be neutralized as soon as possible. Sometimes you can give a warning of what will occur if the threat doesn't stop or comply. Other times you act immediately without wasting time pleading and begging the threat to stop.

 

 

[Chucktshoes]

56 minutes ago, crc4 said:

I understand what you are saying. But the media and general public haven't any idea of the concept of threat resistance and the necessary use of force response by police to that resistance.

Deadly threat people should be neutralized as soon as possible. Sometimes you can give a warning of what will occur if the threat doesn't stop or comply. Other times you act immediately without wasting time pleading and begging the threat to stop.

 

 

 

[BHunted]

I watched the whole video. Being at both ends of a gun barrel, I get it. But there are other circumstances that you guys are depicting wrong. In fact, if you carry now, I'd like to think you'd consider what will or would transpire if you were the officer(s).

This is why I normally stay out of these types of threads. 
Even though the videos showed almost everything from a cop cam, you failed to realize something. Both suspect and officers where pretty much moving and keeping their distance. We all know in a moving situation, not all shots may make their targets. Hell, everyone standing still, sometimes they miss the target. So, that being said, when the suspect was just moving from the apartment area near the parked cars. What was behind the suspect? How long was it before the officers may have finally had a clear target? They tried to deescalate as long as they could. There are many situations that could have changed the outcome. Saying the officer(s) are not fit to serve is a little presumptuous. They will likely get a time out while recouping themselves. They were young and possibly never had to make a decision to shoot a suspect.,
Many things cross my mind here, but being an armchair warrior is all so many times, improper. Woulda, coulda shoulda.

 

[crc4]

1 minute ago, BHunted said:

Many things cross my mind here, but being an armchair warrior is all so many times, improper. Woulda, coulda shoulda.

Armchair warrior with 10 years in the field LE experience.

[Chucktshoes]

10 hours ago, Pain103 said:

It is a double edge sword. You arrive and immediately neutralize a deadly threat people and the media slam you for not deescalating or say your trigger happy.  You hesitate to try deescalating and hopefully talk people down from that edge they are on it can either work to resolve situation with no deadly force or bite you in the backside if they chose to keep on. 

I strongly empathize with the difficulty of the job. At one point in time, I considered moving into law-enforcement as a career, but chose not to upon serious self reflection and the understanding that I would be very ill-suited to the job. In retrospect, I understand that I likely would have ended up making the news in a very terrible way. 

I do not envy you, but the reality is that walking that fine line and putting yourself at risk in the attempts to de-escalate situations and avoid using lethal force if at all possible is a primary expectation of the job. I am very critical of how we do policing in the United States, because so often officers are not trained and held to an appropriate standard. Those that are able to do the job in the manner in which it should be done, maintained by respect, and have my gratitude for performing a very basic and necessary function required for society.

[Pain103]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:31 AM, Chucktshoes said:

I strongly empathize with the difficulty of the job. At one point in time, I considered moving into law-enforcement as a career, but chose not to upon serious self reflection and the understanding that I would be very ill-suited to the job. In retrospect, I understand that I likely would have ended up making the news in a very terrible way. 

I do not envy you, but the reality is that walking that fine line and putting yourself at risk in the attempts to de-escalate situations and avoid using lethal force if at all possible is a primary expectation of the job. I am very critical of how we do policing in the United States, because so often officers are not trained and held to an appropriate standard. Those that are able to do the job in the manner in which it should be done, maintained by respect, and have my gratitude for performing a very basic and necessary function required for society.

I agree. I've been in law enforcement for 20 years and know the dangers associated and never asked for more than a paycheck. I believe we in law enforcement should not be the aggressor when it comes to deadly force except for those few instances such as active shooter. I'm not saying law enforcement officers shouldn't defend themselves but as a whole society expects you try to deescalate when possible but there isn't always that possibility. 

 

As this demand for de-escalation has grown it has caused officers to hesitate longer before using deadly force. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can be depending on the situation and how people choose to react on both sides. 

[Defender]

Although this video is from 2019, I seriously doubt I could be a cop in the political climate these days, even if I was younger and fit.  The only reason I'd be backing away in that situation would be if I had innocent bystanders behind the perp and needed to establish a clear field of fire.  Absent that, give verbal commands until he got with attack distance then Id shoot him.  I know the so-called 21 foot rule is controversial, but this video clearly shows that the should have been shot sooner.  

[Omega]

Never been a cop, or played one on tv, and Holiday Inn has become too expensive, so take it for what it's worth.  All this is in hindsight, and there is no telling what changing one of the links would do to the chain of events. Having said that, there are only a couple things that I seen that may have been done differently, and the circumstances could have turned out differently.  Mind you, I say differently, not better or worse.

One is that the second LEO could have gone less lethal sooner, if he had employed a taser, it may have turned out the same, but maybe not.   The drawback of course is that the LEO staying lethal needs to cover him and he best be a good shot if the perp turns his attention to his partner or doesn't go down when tazed.  

The other thing was that once the first shots went off, they could have rushed in and secured his hands immediately.  Here, the drawback could be that the perp may have another weapon, knife or gun, and the officers may or may not have seen what happened to the knife he originally had, which often happens due to tunnel vision, so may not have been an option.  

The last thing I want to point out is that you never assume a perp is down for the count, always be prepared to send more rounds into him just in case.  And as a civilian, never approach someone you shot, let medics or LEO do that, he may be faking or still have enough energy to do you harm.

[deerslayer]

2 hours ago, Omega said:

Never been a cop, or played one on tv, and Holiday Inn has become too expensive, so take it for what it's worth.  All this is in hindsight, and there is no telling what changing one of the links would do to the chain of events. Having said that, there are only a couple things that I seen that may have been done differently, and the circumstances could have turned out differently.  Mind you, I say differently, not better or worse.

One is that the second LEO could have gone less lethal sooner, if he had employed a taser, it may have turned out the same, but maybe not.   The drawback of course is that the LEO staying lethal needs to cover him and he best be a good shot if the perp turns his attention to his partner or doesn't go down when tazed.  

The other thing was that once the first shots went off, they could have rushed in and secured his hands immediately.  Here, the drawback could be that the perp may have another weapon, knife or gun, and the officers may or may not have seen what happened to the knife he originally had, which often happens due to tunnel vision, so may not have been an option.  

The last thing I want to point out is that you never assume a perp is down for the count, always be prepared to send more rounds into him just in case.  And as a civilian, never approach someone you shot, let medics or LEO do that, he may be faking or still have enough energy to do you harm.

How close does one have to be to use a taser?  If the guy has a knife, I'm maintaining distance.  

[Omega]

1 hour ago, deerslayer said:

How close does one have to be to use a taser?  If the guy has a knife, I'm maintaining distance.  

No doubt, depending on what cartridge they use, the distance is decent, but even then it's dangerous.  That is why teams must train, while one officer has the perp's attention, remember tunnel vision works both ways, the other can employ the non-lethal.  Though at my age and physical traits (and some LEOs too), I would need three times that distance and still be in the danger zone.

TASER 7 Probe Spread - Cartridge Comparison (vimeo.com)

[deerslayer]

16 minutes ago, Omega said:

No doubt, depending on what cartridge they use, the distance is decent, but even then it's dangerous.  That is why teams must train, while one officer has the perp's attention, remember tunnel vision works both ways, the other can employ the non-lethal.  Though at my age and physical traits (and some LEOs too), I would need three times that distance and still be in the danger zone.

TASER 7 Probe Spread - Cartridge Comparison (vimeo.com)

Looks kinda iffy…

[Pain103]

I have seen many officers over the years become more dependent on the taser. I was a taser instructor at one time and honestly, I have seen them not work more than they did work. Too many factors to get that desired effect. Loose baggy clothing, distance, firing while moving, or a dart missing completely. Now if you tase someone and they fall and bust their melon or whatever else it's on you. I gave it up after a few years. But it was always another option if appropriate depending on the situation. 

[BigK]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:33 PM, Pain103 said:

I agree. I've been in law enforcement for 20 years and know the dangers associated and never asked for more than a paycheck.

I don't know anyone who's been in LE that long, so I hope you don't mind me asking a question.

As an ignorant civilian, I worry that the endless negative media reactions, constant biased scrutiny (guilty until you can prove yourself innocent), and the revolving door of justice (letting really bad guys out too early) is taking a toll. I can't help but guess it makes the best cops leave early, the kind of people the would be good cops look to other careers, and what we're left with is not enough good guys out there.

Do you think it's getting better or worse out there?

[NoBanStan]

On 2/22/2023 at 11:54 PM, BigK said:

I don't know anyone who's been in LE that long, so I hope you don't mind me asking a question.

As an ignorant civilian, I worry that the endless negative media reactions, constant biased scrutiny (guilty until you can prove yourself innocent), and the revolving door of justice (letting really bad guys out too early) is taking a toll. I can't help but guess it makes the best cops leave early, the kind of people the would be good cops look to other careers, and what we're left with is not enough good guys out there.

Do you think it's getting better or worse out there?

Man, no kidding. Even in my smaller town, most of the cops have a 1,000 yard stare. Who can blame them honestly? Coffee with a Cop is nice and all, but they never really get to see people at their best because they're enforcing LAW (ever changing laws, to make it worse). So most of the interactions have to be with people who aren't abiding... so they see everyone at their worst.

People don't like to admit fault either, so they go on the defensive regularly, which is how things start to escalate. You wind up with a cop who's battle hardened, seen everything under the sun and possibly had attempts made on their life, dealing with some soccer mom who is pissed off because she's not being treated "like a human". It's tough on both ends for sure.

meanwhile, you guys are paid $10 and a pack of gum to deal with this crap.....

But, how do you fix that? Not for me to decide for sure.

[BJB]

There are so many things that went wrong in that situation 

But the deck gun on that pumper could have served well in that situation