Customized Pistol Prices

[DesertRanger]

This is a general question and NOT directed at anyone. I have seen pistols for sale in the past that have various customizations- some heavily customized. Most list the custom features and the costs, which are usually added to the asking price. I tend to not be interested in heavily altered pistols- stippled, cerakoted, aftermarket barrels, etc., even if it is a little discounted, let alone listed at a premium. I think it’s because I see them as someone else’s dream gun that didn’t work out like they wanted. I prefer unaltered stock pistols. I’m interested in other views on this, as I might not be thinking correctly. 

[eRay]

I'm with you. I won't buy a gun that has been customized. I want it stock factory. I'm the same way about automobiles. I have passed on several S&W revolvers lately because they have spring kits in them. I figure the manufacturers have engineers making 6 figures designing these firearms and someone in a garage on their workbench is trying to improve on their design. It might work 20% of the time but the other 80% of the time they just downgrade a good gun. Just my 2 cents worth. Your opinion may differ.

[Smith]

2 hours ago, Eray said:

I'm with you. I won't buy a gun that has been customized. I want it stock factory. I'm the same way about automobiles. I have passed on several S&W revolvers lately because they have spring kits in them. I figure the manufacturers have engineers making 6 figures designing these firearms and someone in a garage on their workbench is trying to improve on their design. It might work 20% of the time but the other 80% of the time they just downgrade a good gun. Just my 2 cents worth. Your opinion may differ.

Sort of. Those engineers are having to work within legal system constructs and not just pure mechanics. They are also designing on a mass production model, so the tolerances are accounted for to ensure the widest range of base functionality. The whole 1911 thing is a good example. Military grade 1911's were the AK's of the handgun world. Incredibly loose and not terribly accurate without work. Customization is what makes them great guns. So much so, that nearly all 1911's made currently are customized 1911's based on one off's of the past.

That being said, I prefer minimal customizing when I buy second hand and I tend to customize parts that can be taken back to stock fairly easily or with known proven parts. I tend to stay away from custom colors, frame modifications, stippling, relief cuts etc.

[TNman207]

3 hours ago, DesertRanger said:

 

I found some customizations can be value-added. My concern has been knowing who performed the work. I purchased a customized CZ but asked for proof of who did the job. Because they had an invoice and work order from Cajun, I bought the pistol. If it had been performed by the owner,  I might have passed on the deal. 

[DocHawk]

I see gun upgrades almost exactly the same as car upgrades. A Heartbeat supercharger, T1 full suspension, precooler, MRR Flow Forged wheels, and custom wrap might have cost half as much again as the Corvette, but all together they add maybe 5%-10% to the market value. You might get lucky and find the just-right person who wanted that exact setup, but he still isn't going to pay what you put into it.

Those "pay me what I paid" ads tend to stay up forever.

[Snaveba]

Like in the modified car world, it should be cheaper usually (or should be cheaper usually) to pay less for a modified item, than to buy stock and modify it yourself. Not that it should be cheaper than stock, but you typically never get back what you put in. 
 

Then the question comes down to who did the work and I was it done well. Some things, like a simple drop in modified trigger I think would add maybe 80% of the cost of the trigger, to the value of the gun (depending upon how long ago the mod was done). Extensive work still has depreciation. The amount of which depends upon the opinion of the buyer and quality of the workmanship. 
 

I enjoy modifying my own guns in the same way I enjoy modifying cars and trucks. Some folks want the mods but don’t enjoy doing it themselves so they either pay to have it done or buy modified. 
 

I think the bottom line is unless you are in the business of selling new modified weapons, you will almost always loose a little money selling a modified firearm of what you have in it. 

[crc4]

If I'm buying at a private sale, I want a fresh firearm. If I don't know that you are an expert gunsmith (not an assembler) I don't trust you with a Stanley screwdriver, a Dremel, your wife's fingernail file, or your handloads fired in that gun. Particularly if your first name is Bubba.

That changes if you're Wilson Combat or a host of reputable outfits as they stand behind their guns. A private seller doesn't.

I don't see the need to send my CZs off to Cajun or any other outfit - not because they are suspect -but because I can do things for myself within reason and can save big bucks. I don't fall prey to the concept that if I spend more money the gun will shoot better. 

I also don't expect to pay for someone's customization at what they paid for that work, much less if they did it. That's ludicrous and may drive down the price.

There are a few gunsmiths where their work is legendary and worth the added cost. Then there's everyone else.

That's just me.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by crc4

[DesertRanger]

13 hours ago, Smith said:

Sort of. Those engineers are having to work within legal system constructs and not just pure mechanics. They are also designing on a mass production model, so the tolerances are accounted for to ensure the widest range of base functionality. The whole 1911 thing is a good example. Military grade 1911's were the AK's of the handgun world. Incredibly loose and not terribly accurate without work. Customization is what makes them great guns. So much so, that nearly all 1911's made currently are customized 1911's based on one off's of the past.

That being said, I prefer minimal customizing when I buy second hand and I tend to customize parts that can be taken back to stock fairly easily or with known proven parts. I tend to stay away from custom colors, frame modifications, stippling, relief cuts etc.

Point taken on 1911s. I had one a couple of years ago that was mass produced GI model and I sold it. It just wasn’t accurate at all. I knew if I started putting better components on it, I would end up building the whole thing over again. I posted last week about a Tisas that I bought that I thought would be the same, but it is both tight and accurate. Maybe I got lucky- I had no plans to upgrade anything. I try to buy pistols that are already as I like them, but the 1911 world is a different animal. 

[crc4]

2 hours ago, DesertRanger said:

Point taken on 1911s. I had one a couple of years ago that was mass produced GI model and I sold it. It just wasn’t accurate at all. I knew if I started putting better components on it, I would end up building the whole thing over again. I posted last week about a Tisas that I bought that I thought would be the same, but it is both tight and accurate. Maybe I got lucky- I had no plans to upgrade anything. I try to buy pistols that are already as I like them, but the 1911 world is a different animal. 

But with rare exception, we're seeing guns that are 'good' out of the box other than perhaps a trigger job (that's easy to do) and some guns like the Canik TP9 Elite SC, RIA 5.0, and a couple of competition CZs are great out of the box with triggers that would have cost hundreds 2 decades ago.

That was what always bugged me about High-Powers and 1911s 45 years ago. They pretty much sucked out of the box. Why it was acceptable for handguns to be that way, but not shotguns and rifles was because the consumer had to play along.

Consumers today don't have to play that game anymore. With CNC and MIM, tolerances have shrunk, barrels are more accurate, frames are stronger, less hand fitting, and less need for gunsmiths to take care of what should have been done at the factory.

I don't chase perfection - I'm more than happy with good enough and happy to pocket the money I'd be spending (or wasting) on 1% difference. 

Wilson's 1911 guns are beautiful, work well, and deliver the goods. Yet, I can't see putting $3,500 in one as it's still a 1911. If given one tomorrow, I'd sell it next week. You may feel differently and that's what makes a horse race.

I've accepted that 99% of the time it's not the gun's fault, it's mine and I can live with that and not feel sad.

Edited January 19, 2023 by crc4

[papa61]

16 hours ago, Smith said:

Sort of. Those engineers are having to work within legal system constructs and not just pure mechanics. They are also designing on a mass production model, so the tolerances are accounted for to ensure the widest range of base functionality. The whole 1911 thing is a good example. Military grade 1911's were the AK's of the handgun world. Incredibly loose and not terribly accurate without work. Customization is what makes them great guns. So much so, that nearly all 1911's made currently are customized 1911's based on one off's of the past.

That being said, I prefer minimal customizing when I buy second hand and I tend to customize parts that can be taken back to stock fairly easily or with known proven parts. I tend to stay away from custom colors, frame modifications, stippling, relief cuts etc.

I agree totally with the assessment of what the factory engineers are up against. The 1911 however, is a special beast. The original intent was a combat pistol that every soldier could be easily taught to use. It was not meant to be a target pistol. Combat accuracy is not the same as what a target shooter would want. The military also needed something that had standardized replacement parts. Any good civilian AR will shoot tighter groups than a mil spec M16. The one constant I have heard and read over the last 40 odd years is the tighter the 1911 the less reliable it becomes when speaking of the original design. Unreliable is not acceptable for a combat/defense handgun while 5 inch groups at 30 yards is. It's a matter of what do you need it to do. I don't own a 1911 at this point not because I don't like or want them, just don't own one now. I have a Para 14.45 which is a fine piece. I also own a Firestar in .45 which I feel is an improvement over the officer's model 1911. 
after all of that, I also look at modified guns like modded cars, I'm not paying extra because I don't know what is in there. It could have top quality parts installed properly or crap thrown in wrong. I trust my own judgement and "gut" when buying. If I make modifications, they are for my own taste and wouldn't expect you to pay above retail for used parts. My tastes are not yours but if the asthetic mods agree with you then why not? I polished a stainless 357 several years ago because I liked it, an aquaintance saw it and had to trade me out of it. yes, I made a bit on that deal. Maybe "Bubba" actually knows what he is doing. I am not a gunsmith but I do know how to polish a feed ramp or sear correctly. Do you trust that? Maybe you should but if you don't I fully understand, we don't know each other and my trust for you is in the same range.   

 

for TLDR - buyer beware as there are no absolutes.

[DesertRanger]

14 hours ago, papa61 said:

I agree totally with the assessment of what the factory engineers are up against. The 1911 however, is a special beast. The original intent was a combat pistol that every soldier could be easily taught to use. It was not meant to be a target pistol. Combat accuracy is not the same as what a target shooter would want. The military also needed something that had standardized replacement parts. Any good civilian AR will shoot tighter groups than a mil spec M16. The one constant I have heard and read over the last 40 odd years is the tighter the 1911 the less reliable it becomes when speaking of the original design. Unreliable is not acceptable for a combat/defense handgun while 5 inch groups at 30 yards is. It's a matter of what do you need it to do. I don't own a 1911 at this point not because I don't like or want them, just don't own one now. I have a Para 14.45 which is a fine piece. I also own a Firestar in .45 which I feel is an improvement over the officer's model 1911. 
after all of that, I also look at modified guns like modded cars, I'm not paying extra because I don't know what is in there. It could have top quality parts installed properly or crap thrown in wrong. I trust my own judgement and "gut" when buying. If I make modifications, they are for my own taste and wouldn't expect you to pay above retail for used parts. My tastes are not yours but if the asthetic mods agree with you then why not? I polished a stainless 357 several years ago because I liked it, an aquaintance saw it and had to trade me out of it. yes, I made a bit on that deal. Maybe "Bubba" actually knows what he is doing. I am not a gunsmith but I do know how to polish a feed ramp or sear correctly. Do you trust that? Maybe you should but if you don't I fully understand, we don't know each other and my trust for you is in the same range.   

 

for TLDR - buyer beware as there are no absolutes.

Well stated.

[Grayfox54]

With me it depends on what the mods were and who did them. I won't touch a gun Bubba has worked on or built no matter how good he thinks he is or even if he actually is that good. I just don't want to take that chance. 

OTOH something like a Wilson Combat 1911 or C&S Hi-Power are well worth the price. These will actually gain value as time goes on. 

I am guilty of tinkering with my own guns. But I know what I'm capable of and what to leave alone. If i chose to sell it, I generally put it back to as close to stock as I can. 

[crc4]

Perhaps those that get well-known and trustworthy companies who do work on their guns can provide specific documentation of such work. That would go a long way to satisfying claims of modifications done in a professional manner.

Still could be a fraudulent claim, but it would be verifiable at the company.

[hipower]

As Grayfox54 says, know what you're capable of doing before "customizing." My skills are such that I would not attempt many things I see done. My eyesight and hands are not good for many changes anymore.

I personally buy stock condition and generally leave it as is. My only exception to this is a few I've bought from 2 gentlemen here, whose abilities are known to me and this forum. Although these pistols were slightly modified, I knew these men and their reputations and work for items like triggers and sights.

[DJTC45]

Customized Guns all depends on what you call Custom. Replacing Parts aren't really Custom to me I can do that and have done, replaced some Triggers, some Internal parts that were worn out or just cheap cast pieces that some manufacturers use. I've known some guys that when it comes to the 1911's they seek out the top builders to do the work from the ground up and some run $10,000 depending on the Smith, you have Jason Burton, Chambers, Ted Yost, and a few others that comand a premium and they may take a year or two to be completed if you can even get your name for a spot on their books. When it comes to Customized Guns those that I named if I had the funds and a chance I would jump on it. As far as having Custom work done again not just replacing parts it's more of an individuals preference to what they want done. I've seen some guns custom engraved with someone's name or initials and that would affect the price and value to the gun in negative way unless you had the same initials. Some go way over board on engraving a gun, to me less is great, now if you find a notable engraver then I could see paying a premium, there's a fellow in Mexico that owns a little restaurant and he hand engrave's in his spare time and he's very good at it and his work demands a premium, I'm not sure of his name or even if he's still living. It all comes down to your individual tastes as to wether you purchase or

want to pay up for one if everything about it appeals to your taste. But someone saying they have a Customized gun and you ask what's the custom work done and all they had was a Bbl replaced, or a Trigger Group that you can drop into any AR and certain Bolt Action Rifles isn't considered a custom gun even if Larry Vickers put the Trigger Assembly in, just my opinion. Sorry for the long post.

Edited January 20, 2023 by DJTC45

[tnhawk]

On 1/19/2023 at 1:00 AM, Smith said:

... Customization is what makes them great guns. So much so, that nearly all 1911's made currently are customized 1911's based on one off's of the past.

That being said, I prefer minimal customizing when I buy second hand and I tend to customize parts that can be taken back to stock fairly easily or with known proven parts. I tend to stay away from custom colors, frame modifications, stippling, relief cuts etc.

I purchase a 1911 built to the requirements I desire for the pistol.  The only changes I make may be different grips.

[ken_mays]

Back about 20 years ago I was following the LTW crew (Yost, CT Brian, Chen, Christanensen etc) and was amazed by their work, which was some of the best going.  
 

Over time you began to notice that most of the people who bought these guns were more collectors than anything.  You’d see the same gun pop up for sale, unfired as it was when the previous owner had bought it.  Almost nobody was carrying them or doing competitions with them.  The occasions where someone did send in a beat-up custom for refurbishment were noteworthy threads on the forum.  

Most “real” working guns were the realm of lesser known smiths (but not necessarily less capable) whose work could actually be afforded by most of us.  I always had a lot of respect for the smiths in the competition world because they constantly saw high round count guns and knew what worked and they learned how to build guns that would stand up. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by ken_mays