Pistol Brace Rule

[Alleycat72]

13 minutes ago, Scotty said:

What would happen if you used one in self defense? Instant felony charge and loss of all firearms I’d assume? 

It depends. Most people think the law is black and white. In reality it's shades of gray and green. 

[downtown]

I keep hearing that its not official until its "published on the Federal Register ". Not sure what that means? Any insight?

[turkeydad]

I guess the best bet to determine if it's technically in place is to follow the money. It appears to me Palmetto State and others are still selling brace equiped pistols...so there's that.

[btq96r]

4 hours ago, downtown said:

I keep hearing that its not official until its "published on the Federal Register ". Not sure what that means? Any insight?

The Federal Register is a publication of record across the government.  Once this rule is published, it enforceable by law.  That is until it gets tied up in court (which should happen soon enough).

Back in June 2021 this rule was proposed and opened to public comment.  So ATF actually slow rolled it over a year and a half when it could have taken about a third of that time.

[DJTC45]

Does the ATF have the authority to make laws? I've heard others say they can't just make a law but only a recommendation for a law. How do they get away with that, it's all about the registration of firearms, so they say they are going to let you skip the $200 fee that's okay except for the people who already spent that before all this crap started. I also feel that having to fill out a bunch of paperwork, and getting your local police or sheriff's office to sign off is ridiculous I would agree to the finger printing part and filling out the basic information such as your address information and the manufacturer of the weapon along with the serial number and that should be enough to register. I can only imagine all the LGS's here in TN will have to either remove the Brace or file for them to be an SBR and that's just crazy to me.

[JamesZ28]

   Im wondering how this will apply to AOW and multi use lowers, stuff like Tac-14s,Komrad 12s, and 26" overall ar that arent classified as pistols?

[Chucktshoes]

31 minutes ago, JamesZ28 said:

   Im wondering how this will apply to AOW and multi use lowers, stuff like Tac-14s,Komrad 12s, and 26" overall ar that arent classified as pistols?

The same. They’re rifles/shotguns. They were addressed in the text. The criteria set forth is fairly agnostic on that front. In fact, they called out the Tac-14 and Shockwave by name. Any pump shotgun based weapon with a brace is an SBS because they are not designed to be operated with 1 hand. 

[Alleycat72]

50 minutes ago, DJTC45 said:

Does the ATF have the authority to make laws? I've heard others say they can't just make a law but only a recommendation for a law. How do they get away with that, it's all about the registration of firearms, so they say they are going to let you skip the $200 fee that's okay except for the people who already spent that before all this crap started. I also feel that having to fill out a bunch of paperwork, and getting your local police or sheriff's office to sign off is ridiculous I would agree to the finger printing part and filling out the basic information such as your address information and the manufacturer of the weapon along with the serial number and that should be enough to register. I can only imagine all the LGS's here in TN will have to either remove the Brace or file for them to be an SBR and that's just crazy to me.

It's not required to get a police signature anymore. They are just filing your fingerprints. My last form was 14 days. That's about 4 calendar days after they received my cards. 

[downtown]

Can someone explain the having a "trust" part. 

[jeff43]

39 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

The same. They’re rifles/shotguns. They were addressed in the text. The criteria set forth is fairly agnostic on that front. In fact, they called out the Tac-14 and Shockwave by name. Any pump shotgun based weapon with a brace is an SBS because they are not designed to be operated with 1 hand. 

I thought the Shockwave was a “FIREARM”

[Garufa]

1 hour ago, DJTC45 said:

Does the ATF have the authority to make laws? I've heard others say they can't just make a law but only a recommendation for a law. How do they get away with that,…

Basically, yes.  The statutory laws in place enable regulatory agencies to define rules and regulations which are essentially the law.  

[Chucktshoes]

17 minutes ago, jeff43 said:

I thought the Shockwave was a “FIREARM”

It is, until you put a brace on it. Then it’s an SBS. 

[jeff43]

3 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

It is, until you put a brace on it. Then it’s an SBS. 

[Defender]

21 hours ago, BigK said:

"Free" SBR registration means they don't care about the money and they don't want them to be illegal, so they must just want us to register them so they know who owns all the guns. That scares me way worse than the penalty for not registering.

If you bought the brace and pistol already factory assembled new from the gun store, doesn’t the ATF already know what you have?  I know there’s laws against national gun registry, but I reckon they have that already and just call it something different.  Fed govt is way out of control.  I remember G. Gordon Liddy, back in the  90s, calling the ATF Jack-booted thugs.  Lately, the FBI had been publicly revealed to have committed many crimes against the citizenry.  I could go on and on.  Time for some changes.

[monkeylizard]

3 hours ago, downtown said:

Can someone explain the having a "trust" part. 

I'm sure a fellow denizen will correct anything wrong here, but this is how I understand it.

A trust is setup by an attorney and you transfer the property (firearms in this case) into the trust. The trust now owns them, not you. You name yourself as a trustee so you maintain the ability to sell them as you please. The main advantage is that you can name multiple trustees or "responsible persons". Any of those people can can possess (and sell) the item legally without you needing to be present. You all essentially have co-ownership.

One reason to do this is to help prevent being charged in an edge-case in the law around who actually has possession of an item. Let's say you buy an NFA item in your name and put it in your safe. Let's also say your wife has the combination to your safe. She technically has possession of it the same as you and since her name isn't on the registration form, she's violating the NFA any time she's at home and you're not. It's not something I think anyone has ever been charged with, but by the letter of the law it's a problem. A trust solves that by making both of you legally able to possess the item.

Every responsible person listed must submit fingerprints. Before some time in 2016, trusts didn't have to submit fingerprints and this was a major reason to use them. They also didn't require CLEO sign-off on every purchase. Individuals did. Today the CLEO requirement is gone entirely and since all responsible persons in a trust need to get fingerprinted, trusts are less useful than they used to be.

Depending on your circumstances, a trust can make estate planning easier or harder. Remember that you don't own anything in the trust. The trust owns the items. The trust has trustees and it has beneficiaries. Beneficiaries don't have to submit fingerprints, but they can't take ownership of the items until all the trustees die. Then the transfer to the beneficiaries happens outside your will since the items aren't your property. This may be a pro or a con, depending on your personal finances, the value of the items in the trust, your will's beneficiaries, any co-trustees and the beneficiaries of the trust. Say you name your brother as a trustee because ya'll go shooting a lot and then there's no question about if he can have the NFA item or not. You die and he survives you. You might leave everything you have in this world to your spouse (or kids, whatever) but your brother gets sole control over everything in the trust because YOU don't own anything in the trust and neither does he. But he now controls the trust and everything in it. Maybe that's what you want. Maybe not. But it's a factor to consider when establishing a trust and naming the trustees.

[BigK]

2 hours ago, Defender said:

If you bought the brace and pistol already factory assembled new from the gun store, doesn’t the ATF already know what you have?  I know there’s laws against national gun registry, but I reckon they have that already and just call it something different.  Fed govt is way out of control.  I remember G. Gordon Liddy, back in the  90s, calling the ATF Jack-booted thugs.  Lately, the FBI had been publicly revealed to have committed many crimes against the citizenry.  I could go on and on.  Time for some changes.

I built all of mine, so all they know is that I bought a lower, but I've lucked up and bought most of my lowers 2nd hand, so only 1 or 2 have a 4473. If I bought a complete AR pistol w/ brace, I fully believe the ATF keeps those records, effectively creating a registry like you said.

[Dustbuster]

This what happens when the lunatics run the asylum.

 

[Grayfox54]

I'm more confused than ever. I own one firearm with a brace. Its an AR style 9mm pistol with a 6" barrel. It came from the factory with the brace on it. I'm guessing I can just take the brace off? Do I have to destroy it? Turn it in?  Or what? 

[Chucktshoes]

11 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

I'm more confused than ever. I own one firearm with a brace. Its an AR style 9mm pistol with a 6" barrel. It came from the factory with the brace on it. I'm guessing I can just take the brace off? Do I have to destroy it? Turn it in?  Or what? 

The ATF and DOJ mention 5 different options to deal with this unconstitutional ruling.

1)Permanently remove or alter the brace such that it cannot be reattached

2)Remove the short barrel and attach a 16-inch or longer barrel

3)Destroy the firearm

4)Turn the firearm into your local ATF office

5)Complete and submit ATF Form 1 along with the $200 tax payment (There is no $200 fee during the 120-day amnesty period)

 

[Defender]

I’m curious about whether or not one could go through the free sir route, then replace the brace with a conventional stock.  Some one else asked the same thing, but does anyone know for sure about this?

[FUJIMO]

34 minutes ago, Defender said:

I’m curious about whether or not one could go through the free sir route, then replace the brace with a conventional stock.  Some one else asked the same thing, but does anyone know for sure about this?

I've read about this on various sites and it's been mentioned more than once this was an option. However much like here I don't anyone truly knows or really wants to commit to a YES or NO . I keep hearing they wave the fee but you still have to do the paperwork for an sbr which many didn't want , hence the reason for the brace. See, clear as sewage

[turkeydad]

15 hours ago, jeff43 said:

15 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

It is, until you put a brace on it. Then it’s an SBS. 

 

And no waived fee on the braced shotguns...

[phiferran]

On 1/13/2023 at 4:20 PM, phiferran said:

So I had planned to submit my form 1and 200.00 dollars to sbr my Foxtrot Mike AR9 but it appears I can register it with the brace without paying and change to a regular stock if this rule stands. I would rather it be struck down and pay the 200.00 dollars. I hope the ATF gets a serious smack down in the court of law.  
 

Check out answers 10 and 11

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download

Follow the link below and scroll down to "Related Resources" and click on the "New:  Frequently Asked Question.  That brings up the document from ATF that I referenced in my earlier post.  At this time--you can register as an SBR and change the stock.  Who knows if they will leave it like that.  May be an incentive to get more people to register. 

 

[DJTC45]

Here's my situation, I've been digonased with stage four Colon and Liver Cancer, some of you may already know that I was given a 5yr window to hopefully beat it. So my question once it's registered as an SBR what can my wife due with it, God forbid that I don't make it through the next three years of my time line that the Dr's gave me. Would she have to turn it in or could one of my relatives re-register it in their name. I know that you can get a trust set up so that you can add people to it but my nephews are like pulling teeth to get them to be able to go through the process of a Trust. You all know how the younger generation is nowadays trying to get them together and do what needs done is nearly impossible. 

[Johnny Rotten]

1 hour ago, DJTC45 said:

Here's my situation, I've been digonased with stage four Colon and Liver Cancer, some of you may already know that I was given a 5yr window to hopefully beat it. So my question once it's registered as an SBR what can my wife due with it, God forbid that I don't make it through the next three years of my time line that the Dr's gave me. Would she have to turn it in or could one of my relatives re-register it in their name. I know that you can get a trust set up so that you can add people to it but my nephews are like pulling teeth to get them to be able to go through the process of a Trust. You all know how the younger generation is nowadays trying to get them together and do what needs done is nearly impossible. 

Sorry about your situation!

ATF form 5 

Form 5 - Application for Tax Exempt Transfer and Registration of Firearm (ATF Form 5320.5) | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives