How many open carrys??

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Because if you ever so slightly swing your arm in anyones general direction it would be considered brandishing. According to most LE interpretation of the matter.

but if your open carrying and get in a simple dispute with someone that gets just a little loud, then the handgun being exposed could be considered a form of assault the handgun being a tool of intimidation... According to some LE interpretation of the matter.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Im gonna have to say,this is why I don't like/have no respect for law enforcment.They are arogant and cocky.I recal seeing another post by another LE officer,in this post saying to just keep the damn thing covered up!Why,its a 100% legal???

well Homer, the point just flew over your head. My example was 100% legal too. The question is, would you do it? If not, then why not?

Answer these things grasshopper and you will find true understanding...

[Fallguy]

This is probably a place where we are going to agree to disagree old friend...

So heres your answer... maybe, but some folks feel like people walking around with the gun exposed open carrying is irresponsible too... both methods are legal.

My point is/was there is a very fine line of whats acceptable to some and not others. I see someone open carrying and I just think to myself "they really should have that thing tucked away"... although I dont like it, its acceptable to me... other people may freak out and call the police, which is regularly done. I see someone walking around with the gun in their hand, I would get suspiciously prepared for whatever is fixing to happen next, and maybe even call the police myself. Others would probably run in a hysterical panic screaming to the top of their lungs, or hitting the ground... or deciding to defend themselves if they are carrying. Either way its not ending well for the permit holder, even though they were legally in the right.

Whats honestly so frustrating to me is I was there and remember this debate back in 92-93 talking about this very issue. We could very easily have a concealed carry law right now. Our intent in making it a carry permit was to take the grey area away from law enforcement. Our intent was for permit holders to attempt to keep their handguns concealed, if they slipped and it got uncovered then it wasnt a big deal. If we had thought we would have people just walking around "strapped" like it was the old west... it would have been CC.

Well...actually we probably agree more than we don't.

Actually....right after I clicked the "Submit Reply" button I saw the argument that OC could be considered irresponsible firearms handling by some.

I think the test is, what would a reasonable person (if there any of those left in this world) find acceptable. Are there sheep out there that panic at the sight of gun...yes. But does that mean it is reasonable? Of course reasonable is subjective as well.

But sometimes simply exposure to something make it less "shocking" over time. Remember when men first started getting their ears pierced? It was shocking to many people. But now, if an individual doesn't like it, wouldn't do it themselves, it is not shocking to them. But I agree....someone with a handgun has more potential to affect others around them than some dude with a pierced ear.

Also I have heard from many sources I trust, including you, that TN was never actually intended to be a OC state. But simply not to require concealment because of the fear of local LEOs at the time making arrest even for accidental exposure. However...it would appear that legal OC was/is an unintended consequence.

I also agree that if someone OCs in TN they should expect attention and even interaction with others and LEOs. Also if a LEO wants to discourage OC he can do that...but it may be more accepted by the person if it is delivered in a sincere tone instead of a condescending one.....

...and while we may never totally agree on this subject....I'll still let you buy me a beer sometime.

[poak]

Im gonna have to say,this is why I don't like/have no respect for law enforcment.They are arogant and cocky.I recal seeing another post by another LE officer,in this post saying to just keep the damn thing covered up!Why,its a 100% legal???

...and that's what we call a blanket statement

Have you been treated this way by EVERY LEO you've ever met?

Yeah, it's true some LEOs are jerks but guess what, you can say that about EVERY profession. Some salesman are jerks, some lawyers are jerks, some accountants are jerks, etc. You see LEOs are people, and some people are just jerks regardless of their career.

[Guest db99wj]

...and that's what we call a blanket statement

Have you been treated this way by EVERY LEO you've ever met?

Yeah, it's true some LEOs are jerks but guess what, you can say that about EVERY profession. Some salesman are jerks, some lawyers are jerks, some accountants are jerks, etc. You see LEOs are people, and some people are just jerks regardless of their career.

Hey, that's a great example and point...

[Guest slothful1]

To me the people that slam people for OC are no better than the likes of some of our resident TGOers that don't think we should have "assault weapons" and other such nonsense.

It's a right to BEAR arms. Not a right to conceal arms. We should support each other's interests and rights, even if we don't partake in the act ourselves.

+1000

[TGO David]

But sometimes simply exposure to something make it less "shocking" over time. Remember when men first started getting their ears pierced? It was shocking to many people.

Steve, I like ya man but this train of logic just fails. According to the reading and research that I have done on this subject, Phil stated very accurately why we have Handgun Carry Permits instead of Concealed Weapons Permits. The purpose was to remove the gray area that would allow a police officer to make an arbitrary decision when someone's firearm was accidentally flashed from cover.

I've talked about this so much here before that I am almost sick of repeating myself. And I really don't understand why this concept is so hard for so many people to grasp. I suppose it goes back to the age old adage that if you give a person an inch they'll take a mile, but whatever the reason it just frustrates the hell out of me.

So, a couple of points:

#1.) Your earring analogy isn't a good one. Legislators aren't very likely to outlaw the wearing of earrings anytime soon. Conversely some of them are hot and heavy to impose another firearms ban in general, and want to restrict our rights to carry in particular.

If we were talking about a matter as insignificant as men wearing earrings, I'd say that sure you should wear as many as you want in protest. Makes no difference to me. But we aren't. We're talking about the 2nd Amendment.

Our rights are under assault 24/7. Why do so many of us insist on shoving our lawmakers' faces into the thing they so greatly despise???

DISCRETION IS THE BETTER PART OF VALOR!

Im gonna have to say,this is why I don't like/have no respect for law enforcment.They are arogant and cocky.I recal seeing another post by another LE officer,in this post saying to just keep the damn thing covered up! Why,its a 100% legal???

#2.) The legal blood alcohol limit to be considered intoxicated in Tennessee is .08 so does that mean that just because you can drive with a BAC of .07 that you should ???

After all... driving with a BAC of .07 is 100% legal so following with your logic, we should all rush right out there and do it.

Right?

[Fallguy]

LOL...I hear ya Dave...and maybe the earring analogy wasn't the best.

Tell you what....I still let you buy me a beer as well.

[Guest db99wj]

LOL...I hear ya Dave...and maybe the earring analogy wasn't the best.

Tell you what....I still let you buy me a beer as well.

Hey, you can drink until you are .07 then you are still 100% legal!

[canadienmike]

Conversely some of them are hot and heavy to impose another firearms ban in general, and want to restrict our rights to carry in particular.

But in insisting that people should only carry concealed, aren't we voluntarily restricting our rights? There are many states where you don't even need a permit to OC and it would seem that people have gotten used to it there so why can't it become like that here?

I do agree somewhat with the idea of not oc'ing simply to make a political statement, but there are valid reasons to open carry. Yes, you might get harrassed more by people or police, but if a person is willing to take that because they feel as though the benefits outweigh the hassle factor, then let them be.

It seems like it's always the cc crowd that is so adament that the oc crowd is wrong and they need to smarten up, yet those that choose to oc tend to take the live and let live attitude of carry whatever way suits YOU best.

[Ninja9]

Whats honestly so frustrating to me is I was there and remember this debate back in 92-93 talking about this very issue. We could very easily have a concealed carry law right now. Our intent in making it a carry permit was to take the grey area away from law enforcement. Our intent was for permit holders to attempt to keep their handguns concealed, if they slipped and it got uncovered then it wasnt a big deal. If we had thought we would have people just walking around "strapped" like it was the old west... it would have been CC.

That makes sense. I was always surprised the politicians would jump right in allowing OC.

Just thinking with my head and not my heart here - I think OC should be avoided for the most part unless you are in a more rural area. While we see nothing wrong with OC, the public would FREAK if all the CCers OC'd for just one day.... Would they get used to it over time? ...With our media's spin on it?

[TGO David]

LOL...I hear ya Dave...and maybe the earring analogy wasn't the best.

Tell you what....I still let you buy me a beer as well.

You're on! And...

Hey, you can drink until you are .07 then you are still 100% legal!

He beat me to the punch line!

But in insisting that people should only carry concealed, aren't we voluntarily restricting our rights? There are many states where you don't even need a permit to OC and it would seem that people have gotten used to it there so why can't it become like that here?

This evolution of acceptance or awareness or whatever just isn't going to happen. Look around you and consider for a moment how many "progressive" ideas you see taking hold in society. Americans have lost their identity over the past 60 years and are increasingly turning toward European ideals and morals for the basis of what they think American society should become. I blame it on failed leadership in the highest offices of our land, but that's another rant for another day.

My point, if I can draw it back together, is that the progressive mainstream American thinks that firearms are an antiquity of a neanderthal age. Consider Barack Obama's accusations that we here in the South are bitter people clinging to guns and religion. That statement alone is indicative of the whole progressive, Liberal, Leftist, Socialist, Euro-poser mentality and it's a mentality shared by a lot of people.

Those people may be the slim minority right now, but give it another generation or two and the tide may unfortunately turn against conservative, traditional American values.

So your idea that Open Carry makes a statement and desensitizes these people, swaying them to our way of thinking, couldn't be any more wrong in my opinion. I think it's achieving the opposite result. It's inflaming them and causing them to make irrational claims that the streets will be awash with blood if we don't ban guns and ban them now.

Again... your hip isn't the place to make a political statement as far as I'm concerned.

I do agree somewhat with the idea of not oc'ing simply to make a political statement, but there are valid reasons to open carry. Yes, you might get harrassed more by people or police, but if a person is willing to take that because they feel as though the benefits outweigh the hassle factor, then let them be.

No. I refuse to let the well-meaning but misguided actions of others give fuel to those who want to destroy my right to carry a means of self preservation.

It seems like it's always the cc crowd that is so adament that the oc crowd is wrong and they need to smarten up, yet those that choose to oc tend to take the live and let live attitude of carry whatever way suits YOU best.

Read my previous statement. We're all in this together. If you were eating dinner at a nice restaurant with a group of friends and one of them was drawing unwanted attention of the bad kind to your group by burping loudly, farting, making crude remarks, etc. wouldn't you pull that person aside and tell them to cut it out before they ruined it for the rest of you?

I sure would.

[canadienmike]

Look around you and consider for a moment how many "progressive" ideas you see taking hold in society. Americans have lost their identity over the past 60 years and are increasingly turning toward European ideals and morals for the basis of what they think American society should become. I blame it on failed leadership in the highest offices of our land, but that's another rant for another day.

I completely agree

My point, if I can draw it back together, is that the progressive mainstream American thinks that firearms are an antiquity of a neanderthal age. Consider Barack Obama's accusations that we here in the South are bitter people clinging to guns and religion. That statement alone is indicative of the whole progressive, Liberal, Leftist, Socialist, Euro-poser mentality and it's a mentality shared by a lot of people.

Those people may be the slim minority right now, but give it another generation or two and the tide may unfortunately turn against conservative, traditional American values.

So your idea that Open Carry makes a statement and desensitizes these people, swaying them to our way of thinking, couldn't be any more wrong in my opinion. I think it's achieving the opposite result. It's inflaming them and causing them to make irrational claims that the streets will be awash with blood if we don't ban guns and ban them now.

But how have those "progressive" ideas become mainstream? By contantly exposing them to the masses and desensitizing the people to it. What is considered "normal" today would have been appalling not that many years ago.

The leftists that think that we will be awash with blood if we don't ban guns are going to try to ban them no matter what method of carry we choose. I don't think out of sight out of mind would work with them.

No. I refuse to let the well-meaning but misguided actions of others give fuel to those who want to destroy my right to carry a means of self preservation.

Some wouldn't think that they are misguided actions.

Read my previous statement. We're all in this together. If you were eating dinner at a nice restaurant with a group of friends and one of them was drawing unwanted attention of the bad kind to your group by burping loudly, farting, making crude remarks, etc. wouldn't you pull that person aside and tell them to cut it out before they ruined it for the rest of you?

I sure would.

This is a worse analogy than the pierced ears one It's basically saying that open carry people are selfish and rude people that are out to ruin things for you civilized people. What is someone ordered a nice steak at a restaurant and that restaurant was filled with vegetarians that began giving your group a hard time cause someone had the audacity to order meat. Would you tell that person to stop being "rude" and not order the meat? Don't piss off PETA or we'll never be able to eat meat again. Just eat your meat in private so no one can see you.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

That makes sense. I was always surprised the politicians would jump right in allowing OC.

they didnt know there was a difference. The discussions we had were with progun folks, we never told the anti's there was an option. If they had known there was an option they would have thrown ammendments toward the bill and we'd have CC right now.

[TGO David]

This is a worse analogy than the pierced ears one It's basically saying that open carry people are selfish and rude people that are out to ruin things for you civilized people. What is someone ordered a nice steak at a restaurant and that restaurant was filled with vegetarians that began giving your group a hard time cause someone had the audacity to order meat. Would you tell that person to stop being "rude" and not order the meat? Don't piss off PETA or we'll never be able to eat meat again. Just eat your meat in private so no one can see you.

It's not a bad analogy considering that I do believe that those people who choose to carry openly to make a political statement ARE selfish people who will ruin things for the rest of us.

Do I think that there are instances where openly carrying make sense? Well of course so. I can think of a two right off the top of my head:

1. On your own property if you so choose. Your own property being commercial or residential.

2. Employees of gun shops, while in the store or on their way to and from.

Beyond that, I'm sure there are other good ones. I just don't think that there is any necessity for a person to walk around the shopping mall "strapped up" when in reality it provides that person very little proven tactical advantage and carries with it a slew of disadvantages, the least of which being the fact that the police can and may detain you to ask about a permit.

After a while, being stopped and asked about your permit status has got to get old. Hell, I just wanted waffle fries and a chicken sandwich; I didn't want to have to get stopped a dozen times through the food court just because some worrywarts saw my gun and ran to the nearest security guy about it.

I guess I'm just different like that. I buy handguns partially based on how easily I will be able to conceal them. The largest one I've been able to pull that off with so far is my Glock 21SF.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

the thing some of you have to admit is there are some people that OC for other reasons besides political ones too. There are those that just always wanted to be a cop, because they thought it was cool to carry a gun around.. so now they do so everyone can see... there are others that have a complex and use the OC as a way of showing they are more powerful and intimidating... there are some that just do it for the attention... and yet you have some that push everything in their lives to the limit.

I have another example for you:

A Sig 5.56 pistol, AK pistol, or AR-15 pistol is considered just that a HANDGUN per state and federal law. So technically you could sling one around your shoulder and carry it with you everyday... looking like a terrorist. Hey, its legal... but is it a good idea?

[Ninja9]

A Sig 5.56 pistol, AK pistol, or AR-15 pistol is considered just that a HANDGUN per state and federal law. So technically you could sling one around your shoulder and carry it with you everyday... looking like a terrorist. Hey, its legal... but is it a good idea?

Oh no....

NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS! MOVE ALONG... IGNORE THE CRAZY MAN WITH THE FISH!

You know someone is going to try that now

[canadienmike]

the thing some of you have to admit is there are some people that OC for other reasons besides political ones too. There are those that just always wanted to be a cop, because they thought it was cool to carry a gun around.. so now they do so everyone can see... there are others that have a complex and use the OC as a way of showing they are more powerful and intimidating... there are some that just do it for the attention... and yet you have some that push everything in their lives to the limit.

Just like there are some cops that became cops because they want to feel powerful and be able to push people around, because they have some kind of inferiority complex and need to be in a position of power over other people to make them feel good about themselves. Does this describe all cops? No, not at all, but it does describe some of the them. Are there people that open carry to feel like somekind of cowboy, I'm sure there are but to say that no one should because of the motivations of a few to me is like saying you shouldn't respect any cops because there are a small few that don't deserve it.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

agreed... I was just pointing out that not every person OC's for political reasons.

But your totally missing the point.

Those that are OC, especially those that have run ins with other citizens and law enforcement are making all permit holders look bad in the eyes of the general public. Thats not a good thing when you need that general public when were trying to get legislation pushed through like Park/Restaurant carry.

Its just a matter of time before someone comes up with the bright idea to change it and make it CC anyway. Either by an ammendment to what were trying to pass right now or something new. Right now theres a good chance that kind of legislation would pass both the house and senate.

[canadienmike]

Those that are OC, especially those that have run ins with other citizens and law enforcement are making all permit holders look bad in the eyes of the general public. Thats not a good thing when you need that general public when were trying to get legislation pushed through like Park/Restaurant carry.

I think it depends on what causes the run-ins. If it's people being sheep and calling cops because someone is choosing the carry in a legal manner, how does that make us all look bad? People who are against guns are against guns, period. They don't want us to have a gun at all, open or concealed and hiding your gun from them doesn't change that. Do you think that the park/restaurant carry legislation would have an easier time getting though if one of the conditions was to only carry concealed? Would that appease the anti-gun folks enough? Would the Tennessean come out and support that type of legislation? I don't think they would.

[mcurrier]

Im gonna have to say,this is why I don't like/have no respect for law enforcment.They are arogant and cocky.

Unfortunately that's partly required to get authoritative people in the dept. You want A-type personalities, not Officer Hooks. LE requires the ability to take command of a situation, to be able to be in control, not be controlled. That's why most LEO's will lean towards the aggressive/abrasive side.

I'm not arguing with you that a little civility and manners can go a long way in dealing with people. I always tried to be as civil as possible, but when you reach the point that everyone is assumed to be lying and be a BG before proven otherwise, it's time to retire.

[Mike.357]

I don't careif you wanna OC or CC the important thing, which we were given a big reminder of today is to carry. Do it anyway you want to but just do it.

I also believe the reason we are permitted to OC is to allow for incidental exposure of your firearm. I had that happen today. Got out of my truck to go to Walgreens, gun was hitched up on the outside of the waistband of my jacket. Lady gave me a funny disturbed look. I just hooked the waistband and pulled it back over the pistol. good to go and in no danger of arrest for it.

[cadillacdude1975]

i carry both ways. what method on what day depends on my mood. never had any trouble openly carrying.

next?

[TGO David]

I don't careif you wanna OC or CC the important thing, which we were given a big reminder of today is to carry. Do it anyway you want to but just do it.

I also believe the reason we are permitted to OC is to allow for incidental exposure of your firearm. I had that happen today. Got out of my truck to go to Walgreens, gun was hitched up on the outside of the waistband of my jacket. Lady gave me a funny disturbed look. I just hooked the waistband and pulled it back over the pistol. good to go and in no danger of arrest for it.

Should have given her a wide eyed stare and said "I'm out of my meds."

[canadienmike]

I don't careif you wanna OC or CC the important thing, which we were given a big reminder of today is to carry. Do it anyway you want to but just do it.

+1