Had my first negetive encounter with LEO in Hendersonville ..

[Guest db99wj]

justme,your facts,and way of thinking are about as good as kwik****!

Maybe you just like confrontations .Maybe you just like being opposite of others.Maybe you're just looking for problem with cops.

Whatever it is.its screwed.

Nope, because some cops are bad, so they all are, some bankers and businessmen are bad, so they all are, some gun people are, so we all are.

This perception is not only used against "groups" of people that are out there, but they are used against us. Gun owners, us, are all crazy gun nuts that are on the verge of snapping and going postal somewhere. That we should not be trusted with our guns, because they are there, and we will use them if someone is going to slow down the road. That's what the liberal anti-gun crowd believes. That is what is happening with the cop haters, they either had a bad experience (which is rare or they were more likely dishing out a lot of crap and was getting it back) or they know someones brother's girlfriends cousin that had a "bad experience". They are putting all of them into their anti basket, when in reality, it is a small percentage of each group that is the problem.

[DaveS]

I was asked once if I belonged to a gang. I said yes....AARP. Cop called me a smart @%%!!

[Guest JLowe]

Nope, because some cops are bad, so they all are, some bankers and businessmen are bad, so they all are, some gun people are, so we all are.

This perception is not only used against "groups" of people that are out there, but they are used against us. Gun owners, us, are all crazy gun nuts that are on the verge of snapping and going postal somewhere. That we should not be trusted with our guns, because they are there, and we will use them if someone is going to slow down the road. That's what the liberal anti-gun crowd believes. That is what is happening with the cop haters, they either had a bad experience (which is rare or they were more likely dishing out a lot of crap and was getting it back) or they know someones brother's girlfriends cousin that had a "bad experience". They are putting all of them into their anti basket, when in reality, it is a small percentage of each group that is the problem.

What he said. Its a very small percentage of LEOs that commit crimes, but we all carry the blame for it, according to some. DB99WJ just put it in proper perspective for all of us. We, LEOs and Citizens alike, can't go around treating each other like a group instead of individuals.

JUSTME,

There is a saying "You have to give respect to get respect". If you go around expecting everyone to automatically give you respect with out you giving it, well, have fun with that. Most all LEOs that I know treat people according to how they are acting, including me. If your acting like a as*hole, you get treated like one. Got a question for you, when stopped for speeding or such, do you always get a ticket?

Mitch,

I will be praying for you and your family. I am sorry for your loss.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

justme,your facts,and way of thinking are about as good as kwik****!

Maybe you just like confrontations .Maybe you just like being opposite of others.Maybe you're just looking for problem with cops.

Whatever it is.its screwed.

yea it seems justme has a confrontational problem, thus the reason he has problems with authority figures.

Really similiar to kwik

As for "respect"... no one will get it from me when they don the colors of a foriegn defunct flag!

Edited April 2, 2009 by GLOCKMEISTER

[GLOCKMEISTER]

If your acting like a as*hole, you get treated like one. Got a question for you, when stopped for speeding or such, do you always get a ticket?

Dude... you know he always gets a ticket, ya know why... because he is so busy sticking a camera and a tape recorder in the officers face.. he will forget to follow the directions the officer is aking for him to follow.

[Guest justme]

Dude... you know he always gets a ticket, ya know why... because he is so busy sticking a camera and a tape recorder in the officers face.. he will forget to follow the directions the officer is aking for him to follow.

actually no, I've never been stopped for speeding, and there are no points on my license.

[Guest justme]

What he said. Its a very small percentage of LEOs that commit crimes, but we all carry the blame for it, according to some. DB99WJ just put it in proper perspective for all of us. We, LEOs and Citizens alike, can't go around treating each other like a group instead of individuals.

Look at it from your prospective--do you trust the normal citizens you meet in your every day traffic stops, and in your every day encounters, or do you look at them as if they are suspect until proven otherwise?

You approach a car your hand is near your pistol--why is that? The reason is--you have no idea who you're walking up on...

now look at it from the side of someone else--we have no idea what your mentality is-you may be a good person, you may be just another criminal with a badge. None of us know until the encounter starts.

JUSTME,

There is a saying "You have to give respect to get respect". If you go around expecting everyone to automatically give you respect with out you giving it, well, have fun with that. Most all LEOs that I know treat people according to how they are acting, including me. If your acting like a as*hole, you get treated like one. Got a question for you, when stopped for speeding or such, do you always get a ticket?

I do give respect--but I also expect respect in return. I treat people the way I want to be treated, and the way I expect to be treated. I honestly don't know you--but if I get stopped by a LEO and he/she gets to my window, I will give you respect, but I expect it in return. I will treat you like a human being, decently--what is wrong with wanting the same in return?

[Guest justme]

justme,your facts,and way of thinking are about as good as kwik****!

Maybe you just like confrontations .Maybe you just like being opposite of others.Maybe you're just looking for problem with cops.

Whatever it is.its screwed.

Actually I'm not a confrontational person.

but you're entitled to your opinion...

[Guest justme]

for some reason some of you all don't like the idea of holding the police accountable for their actions. I don't know--maybe it is just the way I was raised. For the record I would never make an issue during any traffic stop, or anything like that--the time to fight is once I get them in court. I don't recall I ever said I have or would shove a recorder in their faces...I said I have a recorder and it is near me when I am driving, and if I get stopped the recorder goes on. It provides yet another layer of protection for me. I am a very nice, easy going person. I just think it is smart to use your head for something other than a hat rack. I quit burying my head in the sand long ago. The world is a cold place, with many bad people in it--and an unknown number unfortunately just happens to wear a badge--wish it was not like that, but that is the reality of things, it has always been that way, and always will. Does that make all police bad? No--no more so than one irresponsible or bad citizen with a gun makes us all bad--and yet we are all viewed as suspect until proven otherwise...

I never said all police were bad. I said there are enough bad police so that it is next to impossible to trust the rest. That is a sad statement for our society.

What is wrong with expecting the police to respect our rights--they are their rights too. You would think they would have a stake in abiding by the Constitution--instead some, not all, but some see the Constitution as an inconvenient thing to be gotten around.

If you are unwilling to stand up for your rights--then no one else certainly should.

SO seriously--how do we improve the relationship between law enforcement and the citizenry? Or do we leave things the way they are? How do we reduce the skewed way most police view armed citizens, and the skewed way the citizens view the police? There has to be a way...

Edited April 2, 2009 by justme

[GLOCKMEISTER]

for some reason some of you all don't like the idea of holding the police accountable for their actions. I don't know--maybe it is just the way I was raised. For the record I would never make an issue during any traffic stop, or anything like that--the time to fight is once I get them in court. I don't recall I ever said I have or would shove a recorder in their faces...I said I have a recorder and it is near me when I am driving, and if I get stopped the recorder goes on. It provides yet another layer of protection for me. I am a very nice, easy going person. I just think it is smart to use your head for something other than a hat rack. I quit burying my head in the sand long ago. The world is a cold place, with many bad people in it--and an unknown number unfortunately just happens to wear a badge--wish it was not like that, but that is the reality of things, it has always been that way, and always will. Does that make all police bad? No--no more so than one irresponsible or bad citizen with a gun makes us all bad--and yet we are all viewed as suspect until proven otherwise...

I never said all police were bad. I said there are enough bad police so that it is next to impossible to trust the rest. That is a sad statement for our society.

What is wrong with expecting the police to respect our rights--they are their rights too. You would think they would have a stake in abiding by the Constitution--instead some, not all, but some see the Constitution as an inconvenient thing to be gotten around.

If you are unwilling to stand up for your rights--then no one else certainly should.

SO seriously--how do we improve the relationship between law enforcement and the citizenry? Or do we leave things the way they are? How do we reduce the skewed way most police view armed citizens, and the skewed way the citizens view the police? There has to be a way...

dude, you need to give up on the voice recorder and get a video camera. I swear if anyone ever stuck a voice recorder in my face, and I was the POS cop that Justme describes... the next thing I would say is... "Look out he's got a gun"... "Please sir drop the gun"...

So you can see how that might end.

[Guest db99wj]

for some reason some of you all don't like the idea of holding the police accountable for their actions. I don't know--maybe it is just the way I was raised. For the record I would never make an issue during any traffic stop, or anything like that--the time to fight is once I get them in court. I don't recall I ever said I have or would shove a recorder in their faces...I said I have a recorder and it is near me when I am driving, and if I get stopped the recorder goes on. It provides yet another layer of protection for me. I am a very nice, easy going person. I just have no intention of allowing my rights to be violated and going quietly into that good night.

I never said all police were bad. I said there are enough bad police so that it is next to impossible to trust the rest. That is a sad statement for our society.

What is wrong with expecting the police to respect our rights--they are their rights too. You would think they would have a stake in abiding by the Constitution--instead some, not all, but some see the Constitution as an inconvenient thing to be gotten around.

If you are unwilling to stand up for your rights--then no one else certainly should.

Of course the police should be held accountable for their actions, no one is arguing that if a LEO crosses the line they should not be held accountable. No one should have their rights violated and go on quietly.

You say you never said that all police are bad, but then go onto your next statement and say

said there are enough bad police so that it is next to impossible to trust the rest.

Which seems to imply that since there are enough, the rest can't be trusted. What seems sad is that you are so jaded (by a few stories or maybe even a personal experience, that you can't see that there are many many brave, courageous, respectful cops out there, that do an outstanding job.

We have established there are some that don't respect our rights, just like there are some bankers, some businesmen, some teachers that don't care about the rules either, but that doesn't make them all bad.

Again no one said to not stand up for your rights, but it appears that you are one of the few that actually sees their rights being trampled on all the time.

What has jaded you so much against leo's?

[Guest mangombia]

I live in East Nashville and we have a weekly Thursday lunch Crime Prevention Meeting with Sgt. Ogren of the East Precinct, sometimes attended by the Precinct Commander and often a line officer as well. I asked the Sgt. what is good protocol for a HCP holder to do if pulled over while carrying. He said it would be good form to let the officer know that you are permitted and carrying when they first come to your car and ask for your license and registration. Even if you don't give them your HCP document, it is the same # as your TNDL and when they run your license it will come up and you'll be interrogated about your carry status when they come back, possibly in a more aggressive or defensive posture (such as ordering you to get out of your car and get on the ground while they disarm you).

[Guest justme]

As long as LEO’s are doing their job there are going to be people that are not happy with them. The problem usually is not that the cop doesn’t know the law, but that the citizen doesn’t know they law. The fact that you don’t agree with how a cop is searching your vehicle doesn’t make him a bad cop. There will be no doubt in your mind what a bad cop is if you truly run into one.

You always have recourse. If you think a cop has done something wrong, don’t whine and cry about it here; do something about it. Is it dangerous? Certainly it is, but the cops can’t do anything without a complainant. Several of us here have tried to explain to people how to handle the situation if they run into a bad cop.

We will never be without being able to go to Google news and finding some story about an abusive cop. They are human and they make mistakes.

The fact that someone has made the cut when most can’t earns them my respect. They will have that respect unless they do something to lose it.

And what’s with having a communist flag as an avatar? That looks ignorant and disrespectful to me, but be glad that you are in a country where that is not illegal.

of course officers are human and make mistakes. but on the other hand as far as a citizen goes who has contact with one of the few the bad and the ugly how many "mistakes" can the citizen afford at their hands? the citizen may not have a second chance to allow that officer who has an attitude problem and thinks hes Rambo to correct his "mistakes" I mean most often its the citizen themselves who are on the receiving end of that weapon the officer has.

if he should kill you or someone else he can always claim you were resisting arrest or some other cock and bull story unless there were witnesses like a good video camera. most officers are out of control and those who have an attitude when dealing with the public have no business wearing a badge. if they can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen and go to the house!

law enforcement needs to clean up their act and get rid of the Rambo's. there have been cases where an officer was reported for his bad conduct. I know what the reporter of the officer was told by the Sheriff himself? Sheriff seys "well yes I know this officer is a hothead and a little out of control but really, hes a good officer". DUH.

what about someone whose hands are cuffed behind their back already? they're no danger to the officers at that point. nevertheless those "good officers" whack the prisoner on the back of the head as hes being herded to his cell and busts his head open causing the prisoner to have to go to the hospital for stitches. there were many cases of this locally. but it never made you-tube. the local abuses usually don't, not unless it happens to be reported to the TV stations or press. otherwise its just swept under the rug by those in charge.

but "oops" guess what? well reckon those prisoners just fell off their beds and busted their head! thats probably how they ended up with all those nasty bruises too! this is more widespread and happens more frequent than anyone wants to believe. most want to bend over backwards to defend an officer but to get respect you give respect. that goes both ways. and I have no respect for any officer who abuses his authority or for those officers who know whats going on and say nothing!

I think there are still some good officers out there someplace but right now they are few and far between. the good ones are as much to blame for the bad reputation law enforcement has nowadays as the Rambo type himself. a lot of times the good ones know one of their own has gone over the line or is about too and say nothing about it. did they ever consider in those cases doing a little house cleaning? in other words "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

if you think the one persons avatar is disrespectful to you because its a communist flag do you feel just as much disrespected at all the other non- US flags. those not used as a simple avatar mind you but those flying high and proud over some of our government buildings. how do you feel about those Mexican flags??? how about the United Nothings flag? those may become our national flag you know because our non representatives seem to have been born without a backbone and spine!

I may feel a lot of things is disrespectful but to me its certainly not a piece of cloth called a communist flag.

[Fallguy]

I live in East Nashville and we have a weekly Thursday lunch Crime Prevention Meeting with Sgt. Ogren of the East Precinct, sometimes attended by the Precinct Commander and often a line officer as well. I asked the Sgt. what is good protocol for a HCP holder to do if pulled over while carrying. He said it would be good form to let the officer know that you are permitted and carrying when they first come to your car and ask for your license and registration. Even if you don't give them your HCP document, it is the same # as your TNDL and when they run your license it will come up and you'll be interrogated about your carry status when they come back, possibly in a more aggressive or defensive posture (such as ordering you to get out of your car and get on the ground while they disarm you).

This situation being discussed in this thread has nothing to do with a traffic stop.

There are several threads on that topic. Here is one of the latest ones.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Even if you don't give them your HCP document, it is the same # as your TNDL and when they run your license it will come up and you'll be interrogated about your carry status when they come back, possibly in a more aggressive or defensive posture (such as ordering you to get out of your car and get on the ground while they disarm you).

Ogren actually told you guys this...??? Im all for informing the officer, but there is no way an officer should react like this if you dont.

[Punisher84]

I was gonna respond until someone brought up Kwik and I realized I've already said everything I was gonna say before.

The truth is people like Justme want to believe that anyone in an authority role is bent on causing them issues. It's really a large psychiatric marker of major mental problems like paranoia. Get a grip man. Just because some cop gave you a ticket once that you didn't think you deserved doesn't mean there is an army of stormtroopers ready to "infringe on your rights". Jesus.

[Fallguy]

No doubt there are bad cops out there, but not all LEOs are.

No doubt there are criminals hidden among normal citizens, but not all citizens, even among those that may interact with LE.

I think all will agree with the above. I think we all also agree bad cops are not good, and criminals are not good.

Also I really doubt anything any of us type are going to change the above facts. It doesn't hurt to discuss and debate them. But at the end of the day, there will always be a few bad people, some without a badge, some with.

[Oh Shoot]

... and when they run your license it will come up and you'll be interrogated about your carry status when they come back, possibly in a more aggressive or defensive posture (such as ordering you to get out of your car and get on the ground while they disarm you).

Lordy, the street signals must say CRAWL instead of WALK over there!

- OS

[Guest justme]

I was gonna respond until someone brought up Kwik and I realized I've already said everything I was gonna say before.

The truth is people like Justme want to believe that anyone in an authority role is bent on causing them issues. It's really a large psychiatric marker of major mental problems like paranoia. Get a grip man. Just because some cop gave you a ticket once that you didn't think you deserved doesn't mean there is an army of stormtroopers ready to "infringe on your rights". Jesus.

Have never been given a ticket.

have no psychiatric problems. never said all of them are bad. Said that there are enough bad ones to tarnish the badge of all--and yet no steps are taken to expose the bad ones until it is too late.

[Ninja9]

...when they come back, possibly in a more aggressive or defensive posture (such as ordering you to get out of your car and get on the ground while they disarm you).

Daaaaang... Not saying you shouldn't, but that's not much of an incentive to inform them Can't imagine the consequences of them finding out on their own being much worse than that.

[Guest justme]

No doubt there are bad cops out there, but not all LEOs are.

agree 100%. I never said all of them are bad.

No doubt there are criminals hidden among normal citizens, but not all citizens, even among those that may interact with LE.

again agree 100% and yet all citizens are viewed as potential criminals...

I think all will agree with the above. I think we all also agree bad cops are not good, and criminals are not good.

I think "bad cops" are criminals wearing a badge--as bad in fact as the criminals they claim to chase.

Also I really doubt anything any of us type are going to change the above facts. It doesn't hurt to discuss and debate them. But at the end of the day, there will always be a few bad people, some without a badge, some with.

absolutely agree 100% and yet some people are just too willing to side with anyone except the everyday person on the street. I consider myself pro-citizen. Notice I did not say pro-criminal, as I am very anti-criminal, but I am pro-citizen. I would think that every citizen--law enforcement included, should be pro-citizen, because at the end of the day they are the same as every other person on the street. The Constitution applies to everyone--or at least that was its intent anyway..

[Fallguy]

Have never been given a ticket.

have no psychiatric problems. never said all of them are bad. Said that there are enough bad ones to tarnish the badge of all--and yet no steps are taken to expose the bad ones until it is too late.

Hmmmm...can't totally agree with you there.

Now....is it ok to be suspicious of all LEOs...well even though it could been as slightly paranoid, I wouldn't say it is wrong. But that doesn't mean they should all be treated as being bad.

Sort of like to protect himself/herself a LEO needs to be suspicious of all people, but he/she doesn't have to treat them like a thug until give a reason to do so.

As far as your other post quoting me....I agree

[Guest justme]

Of course the police should be held accountable for their actions, no one is arguing that if a LEO crosses the line they should not be held accountable. No one should have their rights violated and go on quietly.

I agree 100%

You say you never said that all police are bad, but then go onto your next statement and say Which seems to imply that since there are enough, the rest can't be trusted. What seems sad is that you are so jaded (by a few stories or maybe even a personal experience, that you can't see that there are many many brave, courageous, respectful cops out there, that do an outstanding job.

I am not jaded. It is just the fact that nothing is done to expose the bad cops until it is too late. This really is an unfortunate fact of life. I am sorry that it is this way, I really am--but it is what it is. If it isn't--please correct me, I'm more than willing to change my views if they are wrong.

The question I pose to you-how do you tell which can and which cannot be trusted? Seriously--how can you tell? They all dress alike, so how do you know? It is the same way when they approach a car at a traffic stop--how do they know who is the good person and who has just committed a murder, rape or other crime and intend on putting up a fight? It is a case of mutual distrust.

We have established there are some that don't respect our rights, just like there are some bankers, some businesmen, some teachers that don't care about the rules either, but that doesn't make them all bad.

I have said time and time again that not all of them are bad. I said that often times no attempt is made to expose or deal with the bad cops until it is too late and a person has been seriously injured by a bad officer, or have been arrested on a trumped up charge, which costs them lost work time, possible jail time, a fine, and other legal fees, or you have a case like in Texas recently where the officer said "I can screw you over..."--almost as if he was saying "you tow the line or I'm going to really show you what I can get away with..."Just another bad apple who was allowed to slip through the system and go about his merry way. Yes he quit, and yes they began an investigation-but only AFTER it made national news. More has to be done to reign in the soldier wannabes if they want to restore the trust among the people. If they want to act like soldiers, enlist in the Marines or in the Army--if you want to be a police officer, be a police officer.

Again no one said to not stand up for your rights, but it appears that you are one of the few that actually sees their rights being trampled on all the time.

I never said I see my rights being trampled on all of the time. I say that if a person has had their rights legitimately violated, then they should stand up for them. If person is not willing to stand up for their rights then no one else should do it for them.

What has jaded you so much against leo's?

Again, I'm not jaded. I believe there are some very good and decent people who work in law enforcement, who do try to do a good job, and to them I give a thumbs up and say way to go, wish there were more like you, and I mean that seriously--but I also know that there are some people in law enforcement who should never have been there, and should not even be allowed to be in a position of authority simply because he/she cannot handle it, and who certainly should never be allowed to possess a gun. What is wrong with wanting the people to be treated with the same respect and decency that law enforcement wants? What is wrong with wanting law enforcement to respect the rights of the people? Yes we should respect law enforcement, and yes I do, but yes also--law enforcement should treat the people decently, and show respect to the people.

what is so wrong with this?

Edited April 2, 2009 by justme

[Guest justme]

Hmmmm...can't totally agree with you there.

Now....is it ok to be suspicious of all LEOs...well even though it could been as slightly paranoid, I wouldn't say it is wrong. But that doesn't mean they should all be treated as being bad.

They are not all bad--I have said time and again that. Trust on the other hand is earned.

Can a LEO earn trust? Of course--and if one shows me by their actions and demeanor that they are professional, courteous, and decent--then they just jumped to the head of the line. I never said--or at least I don't think so anyway--that I would never trust LEOs--they are people like you and I. I said that I do not trust them based on the fact that there are enough bad ones to make it difficult to trust any of them until they can demonstrate to me through their actions and demeanor that they can as individuals be trusted--or at least I think I said that anyway...trust is earned--blind trust is something you should never give.

Sort of like to protect himself/herself a LEO needs to be suspicious of all people, but he/she doesn't have to treat them like a thug until give a reason to do so.

and yet unfortunately that is what they do. We are all seen as potential criminals, which is really sad, because most people are not thugs, just like many police are not bad...and yet the mutual distrust is there.

Edited April 3, 2009 by justme

[DaveS]

All the more reason not to Open Carry. Besides, park rangers have to deal with alot of "Squirrels" on a daily bases! LOL

WD