Had my first negetive encounter with LEO in Hendersonville ..

[Fallguy]

The driver's license law says "No person, except those expressly exempted in this section, shall drive any motor vehicle upon a highway in this state unless the person has a valid driver license under the provisions of this chapter for the type or class of vehicle being driven" [ TCA 55-50-301(a)(1) ]

For the carry law, the 'defense' bit is a separate section rather than being included in the prohibition (as the driver's license is above) but I still don't get the difference. I guess you could argue that HCP holders are actually *breaking* the law, but that the permit allows the state to turn a blind eye to it... but that flies in the face of 39-17-1351®(2) which speaks of being able to carry "lawfully." How can it be an illegal activity if the LAW says can be done "lawfully"?

Everyone knows that somebody calling 911 to report "a man driving a car" would (rightly) be told to pound sand. My gut tells me that the only reason "a man with a gun" is treated any different is that DL holders vastly outnumber HCP holders.

Secondly, LEOs, like HCP holders, are not mentioned at all in the law prohibiting carry (TCA 39-17-1307) -- they are in a separate section from HCP holders (1315 instead of 1351) but the 'defenses' section (1308) treats them exactly the same. Does anyone here want to argue that a "cop with a gun" 911 call is going to get the same treatment as a "man with a gun"?

I admit...this is getting over my head....

[Guest KWW67]

They can stop you at any time to check anything, without cause.

Otherwise they couldn't do the mass checkpoint stops.

- OS

Incorrect. The THP is the only LEO in this state who may demand your DL without a violation of law committed in their presence or upon an investigation of a motor vehicle accident. All other officers are out of luck. As someone stated before there are very strict guidelines for checkpoints, ie DUI, seat belt, etc. Most people just pull out their license and show them b/c they think they have to........ I know. I have worked many..

[Punisher84]

Incorrect. The THP is the only LEO in this state who may demand your DL without a violation of law committed in their presence or upon an investigation of a motor vehicle accident. All other officers are out of luck. As someone stated before there are very strict guidelines for checkpoints, ie DUI, seat belt, etc. Most people just pull out their license and show them b/c they think they have to........ I know. I have worked many..

Why only Highway Patrol??

[Mike.357]

The law allows for OC, so if you wanna do it, then go and do it. But don't complain when it causes some unwanted attention.

I stop several days a week in a Weigles store near the county jail. There are Knox deputies in there all the time. They never speak to me because they do not know I am armed. I will bet dollars to a donut that if I OC'd in that store I would have had many unwanted interactions with the man.

I figure the less interaction I have with the man the better off I am. Cops are not being my friend out there. They are looking for a reason to arrest me. I choose not to give them reason to look twice at me.

And another thing. Driving by the county lock up twice daily is a good reminder to stay on the straight and narrow.

[Guest justme]

Hendersonville has the worst reputation in this area dealing with permit holders, but this can all be avoided if you carry concealed. Mitch's Instructor should have stressed the possibility of these type of situations occuring when one open carrys.

So you allow them to intimidate you into cover up when no state law requires it?

The issue isn't whether the OP was OC'ing or CC'ing, the issue is that the OP was harassed by the police and may have had his rights violated. How the OP carried is not germane to the issue at hand. The police had no right to treat the OP the way they did.

And that is what lawyers are for--they make it easier to sue cities when they violate your rights and harass you. Harassment is wrong and should not be tolerated by anyone.

[Guest justme]

Why only Highway Patrol??

Because the state of Tennessee issues the DL, not any city or county government.

[Guest justme]

Just keep in mind kids, LEO's have a job to do, and just because you are not exposed to the douchebags they have to deal with on a daily basis doesn't mean these douchebags do not exist.

Yes, but they treat everyone like they are a DB, not just criminals--that is one big reason none of them can really be trusted as it is.

I do not feel Mitch is a DB' date=' nor do I feel his actions are DB related[/b'], but...for their safety and the safety of the public, LEO's have to verify your specific level of D-Baggery. Once they verified Mitch was a level 0, he was on his way. Yeah it's a hassle to OC, but if you want to practice and protect your rights, then you won't mind the hassle. It's not like they locked you up, or confiscated your weapon.

What the OP described was not a mere stop for cause--the police wanted to show him who was in charge. All they had to do was ask for his permit--it does not take treating the person like they are a murderer for a permit check to happen.

[Guest justme]

They can stop you at any time to check anything, without cause.

Otherwise they couldn't do the mass checkpoint stops.

- OS

Absolutely 100% wrong. First, AFAIK Tennessee does not have any "Stop and identify" law. Meaning that LE has to have RAS that you are either already committing a crime, or about to do so in order for them to have a legitimate reason to stop you. They cannot just stop you and demand your "papers" just because they think they can. They have to have a legitimate reason. Any stop not justified as a legal detainment has lawsuit flashing all over it.

Second, the "mass checkpoint" stops that you see are almost exclusively carried out by the THP and only then on small roads that won't hold up traffic too badly, and only then to carry out DL checks. Every so often you might come up on a "sobriety checkpoint", but they can only stop you long enough AFAIK to carry out the original purpose--check your license, or see that you are not DUI/DWI, and then have to let you be on your way.

[Guest tacticalteacher]

And at those mass checkpoint stops you can ask, "Am I being detained?" until they admit no you are not, at which point you are free to go. That is, unless you give them a reason to detain you (or they make one up like smelling pot smoke). If they cannot articulate reasonable suspicion that you have comitted or are about to commit a crime there is no requirement legally to show a drivers license, proof of insurance, or anything else to them as they have no legitimate reason for stopping you.

Will this attitude get you in some crap from time to time? Absolutely. But keep in mind most cops know they are flirting with a lawsuit over civil rights infringements when they encounter a citizen who knows what the limitations of reasonable search and seizure laws are - most times they let you go. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS and know what the police are legally allowed (and not allowed) to do.

Not saying that you have ever been in prison but, everytime I deal with an ex-con on the street that has had time to read the law books, I get the same answer you gave about them knowing their rights and that I'm harrassing them for some reason or other. The truth is we have a job to do and we deal with the parts of society that nobody else wants to and we don't know right off the bat who is good and who ain't. I have been a LEO for 19 years and I have been involved in shootings, one of which was a person that looked like a (law-abiding citizen). My point is the gang question was probably out of line but as far as the rest of the questions, I ask them on a daily basis, they are part of my reports that I am required to file. I hope you never do but, if you ever get shot at you'll understand why LEO's treat people with guns like their dangerous until they find out what's going on.

[Oh Shoot]

Incorrect. The THP is the only LEO in this state who may demand your DL without a violation of law committed in their presence or upon an investigation of a motor vehicle accident. All other officers are out of luck. As someone stated before there are very strict guidelines for checkpoints, ie DUI, seat belt, etc. Most people just pull out their license and show them b/c they think they have to........ I know. I have worked many..

All very interesting...

I've been in a couple of checkpoint stops before, and I guess they were THP fellers, thinking back.

- OS

[Guest justme]

Not saying that you have ever been in prison but, everytime I deal with an ex-con on the street that has had time to read the law books, I get the same answer you gave about them knowing their rights and that I'm harrassing them for some reason or other. The truth is we have a job to do and we deal with the parts of society that nobody else wants to and we don't know right off the bat who is good and who ain't. I have been a LEO for 19 years and I have been involved in shootings, one of which was a person that looked like a (law-abiding citizen). My point is the gang question was probably out of line but as far as the rest of the questions, I ask them on a daily basis, they are part of my reports that I am required to file. I hope you never do but, if you ever get shot at you'll understand why LEO's treat people with guns like their dangerous until they find out what's going on.

And yet LE tends to look at everyone as a criminal in waiting.

If you want to know if someone has a permit, simply ask them. How many criminals are going to carry their gun on their side in a holster for all of the world to see?

LE treats people like criminals when all they are doing is minding their own business--lectures people who have done nothing wrong, try to find reasons to arrest them when it is not evident that they have committed any crime, and if someone just happens to make a LEO mad, or just happens to know their rights better than the police do--LE could try to "screw them over" just like the officer in Dallas said to the football player Ryan Moats earlier this month..."I can screw you over"...

and then LE wonders why the people won't speak to them and don't trust them...Respect goes both ways, LE has to give it to get it. Respect and common sense were both severely lacking by the Hendersonville officers who stopped the OP.

However, I would like to add that there are some good officers left--how many I don't know. There are those who treat the people with respect and decency--I have seen this first hand, and so I will be the first to admit that not all of them are bad--I do say that it is extremely difficult to tell the good from the bad, because the bad seem to outnumber the good anymore, which makes all LE look bad. That said, when a bad one is located I do think an example should be made of him/her by terminating the person from their position in order to show the public that LE is interested in cleaning up its' image.

Welcome by the way.

Edited March 31, 2009 by justme

[Guest KWW67]

All very interesting...

I've been in a couple of checkpoint stops before, and I guess they were THP fellers, thinking back.

- OS

Not necessarily. Local LEO's may conduct their own checkpoints, they just can't ask for your DL. Now if you pull up with no seat belt on or headlight out or any violation, then they can. We use to call em roadblocks. That is no more. Politically incorrect. A checkpoint must also be random and in a predetermined order of stop and for a specific purpose, i.e. every 3rd car, every 4th car, every other car etc. But if a violation is apparent, then you may pull them out of order. If you run across something other than the checkpoint purpose then it is a bonus. That is why you may or may not be stopped, and/or waved thur. It depends on the order they chose and where you are in line, again unless you have a visible violation. If THP is there, then DL checks can be done by all there because the locals are then assisting the trooper. And if you pull up there and without being asked anything commence to telling the officer you have no DL with you. well..... you volunteered it. Rule of thumb: Both hands on the wheel, seat belt on, and speak only when spoken to and then only carefully and to the point........

[Guest KWW67]

Why only Highway Patrol??

The T.C.A specifically only authorizes an officer of the "department". Department meaning the dept of safety.......

[Guest HexHead]

I completely agree with this, and you have to understand one thing; not everyone thinks the same way we do. You do have every right to carry your gun however you want to, but understand that if you do have your bright & shiny 1911 (which is beautiful to me) exposed in broad daylight, someone is going to freak out b/c it's scary as ***** to them...

Now the LEO's had no reason to act like the did, but don't be upset that someone called them b/c they saw you carrying a gun, people are going to do that, and it will never change. With all that being said, continue to carry however you like to, just remember that outside the pants will probably cause you more hassles than concealed.

That's all fine and dandy, but one the officer was presented with his HCP, THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE END OF IT.

From that point on, the officer exceeded his authority.

[Punisher84]

The T.C.A specifically only authorizes an officer of the "department". Department meaning the dept of safety.......

Roger that! Thank ya.

[deerslayer]

My point is the gang question was probably out of line but as far as the rest of the questions, I ask them on a daily basis, they are part of my reports that I am required to file.

So what do you do if someone refuses to furnish his social security number?

[Guest JLowe]

So what do you do if someone refuses to furnish his social security number?

You can refuse to give it all you want. When your DL or HCP are ran through NCIC/TCIC, same number by the way, it has your SSN listed in the info. Its an identifier, to make sure you are who you say you are. If someone hesitates on their SSN, DOB, or anything else; its an indicator that they may be lying or using false or stolen ID. Now I know that in this day and age, no one would use fake or false ID, but in the last year, 4 DL manufacturing machines have been stolen in various states from the various Dept.s of Safety.

The officers had a job to do, check an armed person and thats what they did. Did they have to supply the attitude?, probably not, but thats neither here nor there. Their attitude may come from the fact that we get sick and tired to armed person calls and it turns out to be an HCP holder. When I first started in LE, a armed person in public call was a hot call. Now a days, we don't get into a hurry, because its probably a HCP holder utilizing open carry. Or it maybe the next person going on a killing spree, but we get so many wolf calls, that when its the real thing, we respond routinely. Then only get into a hurry when the shooting starts.

I personally don't care if people open carry or not, it make you more of a target and me less of one when I'm in plain clothes, as I don't not open carry ever unless in uniform. When you do and you get stopped and "harassed", tuck in your boo- boo lip and STFU, because the police are going to do their job and investigate the situation. The OP's rights were not violated in any way, because believe it or not, its not against the law or a violation of your rights for the police to have an attitude with you. Does it suck, yes, but thats life. I have personally been stopped when off duty for operating my PMV above the posted speed limit and been given attitude by Troopers and locals too, I figure its my fault for them having to deal with me anyways as I was the one in the wrong. I'm Not Saying the OP was wrong, just improperly equipped to handle the warm day .

[Guest Major Pain]

Very good post.--MP

[Guest JLowe]

That's all fine and dandy, but one the officer was presented with his HCP, THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE END OF IT.

From that point on, the officer exceeded his authority.

No, they did not. That had a responsibility to ensure that no laws were being broken and that the OP was who he says he was. If your going to accuse an officer of exceeding his authority, you need to know the law and previous supreme court decisions. And, no, its not my place to provide you with that information. You obviously feel that simple presentation of ID is the be all and end all of everything. I will elaborate further on the ID machine thefts to include that the thieves also stole the materials needed and computers to manufacture proper, real, and with absolutely false information. Things like that makes our job harder. Settle down and realize that this world is full of wolves and sometimes the wolves attempt to wear sheep clothing. Don't be angry with the sheepdogs when they are attempting protecting the flock.

[Mike.357]

tactical teacher said

The truth is we have a job to do and we deal with the parts of society that nobody else wants to and we don't know right off the bat who is good and who ain't.

While I am not a fan of interacting with police in an offical sort of way I am thankful that there are police to do what they do.

Your words remind me of Jack Nicholson's character in the movie that portrayed him as the commander at Gitmo.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Mike.357

[eehlert]

Just wanted to chime in here and give JLowe a little "backup". What he has said is true...the checkpoints and the questioning.

What the OP experienced is called a field interview. Most of the local agencies around here have a form established by their department that has questions on said form about the person being interviewed. One of those questions is probably about gang involvement. The smart LEO will ask the same questions to every person they are field interviewing everytime. Field interview forms are for data tracking purposes and are similiar to what would be filled out on an arrest report...without the arrest.

IT is a good idea to conduct your verbal "routine" interactions the same way everytime you come in contact with someone that you were dispatched to deal with or pull over. This way, when the LEO has to go to court, he can testify to what he asked, because he "asks the same questions everytime." And this can be backed up with the in-car camera if an agency is fortunate enough to have them.

And in this case Hendersonville may use this data for statistical purposes, in that "for the year 2009 the PD recieved X number of gun related calls and Y number were gang related."

Gangs have been and will continue to be a huge problem.

As for SS#, you are not required to give it, but if I need it, I can get it through other means. Not a big deal. As for just asking for HCP or DL....not always gonna cut it.

The OP handled himself well. And, from what I have read the officers did also. What everyone needs to please remember, from a LEO standpoint is that there is no such thing as a routine traffic stop or call. Take a look at what happened in Oakland last week. LEO's must be prepared and cannot let their guard down at anytime. I am not defending the LEOs that have bad attitudes and abuse their authority, but again, remember and in this case specifically the LEOs were dispatched to a "man with a gun" call...the OP was a threat until proven otherwise. The LEOs actually conducted themselves within the law, based on what was said in the OP. They did not prone you out or come at you with guns drawn, so obviously they did not have facts or suspicions that you have or were about to commit a crime. Everyone who carries a gun should keep this in mind. Its just a fact of life becuase of the world we now live in. Now more than ever, LEOs must remain hyper vigilant to any threat, real or perceived.

Its not that we don't want anyone other than us carrying guns...in fact for me, its just the opposite, but my main goal is to go home to my family every night and to do that, I must be vigilant.

Edited March 31, 2009 by eehlert
Grammar

[Guest meadowmb]

You are luck that cop did not shoot you.....

[Fallguy]

JLowe I'm with you for the most part...about LEOs having a job to do, which includes interviewing the person, but the part below is where I disagree.

The officers had a job to do, check an armed person and thats what they did. Did they have to supply the attitude?, probably not, but thats neither here nor there. Their attitude may come from the fact that we get sick and tired to armed person calls and it turns out to be an HCP holder.

It sounds like you are saying it is ok for LEOs to have an attitude toward the public, even if that individual has not given any cause for it other than conducting a legal activity.

I agree for your safety all people (especially armed) have to be thought of as potentional trouble, but that doesn't mean they can't be treated with common courtesy until they offer a reason not to be.

I mean...you expect it from the citizens you interact with, right?

..and to eehelrt, well said.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Fallguy

[Fallguy]

You are luck that cop did not shoot you.....

How do you figure?

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Not necessarily. Local LEO's may conduct their own checkpoints, they just can't ask for your DL. Now if you pull up with no seat belt on or headlight out or any violation, then they can. We use to call em roadblocks. That is no more. Politically incorrect. A checkpoint must also be random and in a predetermined order of stop and for a specific purpose, i.e. every 3rd car, every 4th car, every other car etc. But if a violation is apparent, then you may pull them out of order. If you run across something other than the checkpoint purpose then it is a bonus. That is why you may or may not be stopped, and/or waved thur. It depends on the order they chose and where you are in line, again unless you have a visible violation. If THP is there, then DL checks can be done by all there because the locals are then assisting the trooper. And if you pull up there and without being asked anything commence to telling the officer you have no DL with you. well..... you volunteered it. Rule of thumb: Both hands on the wheel, seat belt on, and speak only when spoken to and then only carefully and to the point........

you still have to have a trooper on the scene when conducting a "roadblock"... right, or have they changed that recently?