Had my first negetive encounter with LEO in Hendersonville ..

[Guest JHatmaker]

Sounds like a fun day. I took the liberty of trying to break your post up into paragraphs just to make it a little easier to read, though.

Appreciate that, I still had a hard time...

[res308]

They should have just asked to see your permit, maybe even ran the DL #, then left you alone. Should not have asked for your SSN. You don't have to give it. As far as I know, those officers are not taking taxes directly out of your check, the KGB- uh, I mean IRS- does that. That's what the SSN is for. They should not have hassled you like that and should have told that park ossifer to go back to playing with his sqirrel. Just my two, but I've been a cop out here on the streets for a long time and it burns me up to see people treated that way.

[Mike.357]

The questions you were asked about you date of birth, address, phone number, SS# ect. are all normal.

I would plainly state that all info in the HCP was valid and current. They do not need my SS# or phone number. Gonna be an argument over that stuff.

[Louisb]

What is your Social Security number . . . . HMMM the one question they shouldn't ask and you sure do not have to share.

[S&WForty]

Just give them the last 4 digits of your SS#.

[Guest JHatmaker]

Just give them the last 4 digits of your SS#.

Or say it's in the system. You don't have to have it posted on your driver's license, so they can't ask for it. If they really needed it tell them to call into the station and have someone look it up if they weren't by their patrol cars.

I hate to hear about stuff like this, gives LEO's a bad name. They have enough to worry about let alone their reputation b/c there are some newbie bluebie's who just joined the force abusing their authority.

Hat's off the the good cops out there though!!

[Guest ryan02]

Most people do not open carry because it's cool. I have respect and am thankful for all officers and the job they do, but get tired of hearing LEO say people open carry because they want to look like a cop. I have no reason to want to look like a police officer. For example today I was carrying like always. I was carrying OWB because I started the morning wearing a light rain jacket, by the afternoon the sun came out and it was hot. I had to run in the gas station to get a drink and did not feel like putting my jacket back on to go in. So I did'nt. but the whole time I was looking over my shoulder for officers and felt like I was breaking the law.

Dont get me wrong I understand they have to address the situation if someone reports it.

[Guest HexHead]

You know, you read stuff like this, and see the videos on the news of cops going right to the taser when somebody doesn't hand over their license or registration papers fast enough and it's just a matter of time before things are going to start getting ugly.

Maybe it's just the general coarsening of society lately, but cops used to be both professional and generally polite, at least until there was a problem. That seems to be gone.

Now it seems to be just barking orders, demanding immediate compliance or going straight to the taser. Are all the instructors at the academy SWAT entry team guys now?

[Guest Grout]

Every time I read a thread like this I'm glad I carry concealed.Been carrying since the early 90s and never had a problem.

[Shima]

I can't believe I'm the first one that went to this comment, but you could've avoided all this with your HCP badge. J/K. I DO NOT or WOULD NOT have one of those. I think you handled things right also, but would've got the name of the smart guy that asked about your gang affiliation. I definately would've called his superior and expressed my dissatisfaction with his attitude. What a douche.

[Guest Tn.Mitch]

Most people do not open carry because it's cool. I have respect and am thankful for all officers and the job they do, but get tired of hearing LEO say people open carry because they want to look like a cop. I have no reason to want to look like a police officer. For example today I was carrying like always. I was carrying OWB because I started the morning wearing a light rain jacket, by the afternoon the sun came out and it was hot. I had to run in the gas station to get a drink and did not feel like putting my jacket back on to go in. So I did'nt. but the whole time I was looking over my shoulder for officers and felt like I was breaking the law.

Dont get me wrong I understand they have to address the situation if someone reports it.

That was the same thing that happened to me,I had a IWB holster,stopped in store to grab a few things,,why should I have to put my shirt on to cover my gun when its hot out???Because some little old lady might not wanna see it, because some LEO don t want to see a citizen dare wear a gun without being a LEO???? if thats the case, then why is it leagel?? if your going to get hasseled everywhere you go ,and your not breaking the law,/./...people either need to learn that BGs have there gun in there pocket,not in a holster,if people dont want to see it then change the law....until its illleagel,get used top seeing mine, I dont think its cool, its my right,I jumped through all the loopholes,the law required of me to CC or OC, so whats the problem,The sheep and the LEO think if the dont see any guns,they will all diaspear and no more shootings or crime will happen...I dont think so, When a BG sees me walking down the street with my 1911,45 cal,strapped to my hip a nice shiny,stainless Full mag on my belt,weak side,hes gotta ask himself 1 thing.....Do I really want some of that????I dont wear a badge,dont think im a cop,I respect them,and do what they ask,but until the law changes,I guess we will have to replay this scene over and over again,because,im completly in my right to open carry when I chose to do so as long as its not a no carry zone,no matter who likes it.ill do it my way,and you do it yours......Between the sheep and the LEOs who dont like it,they will have it like Texas and Flordia ,where you have to hide it,at least when someone sees me comming,they now right away,they dont have to wonder if Im hiding a gun in my pocket,like all the BGs do,last time I heard,the BGs didnt wear OWB holsters ans open carry everywhere,I think only the Law abbiding citizens with (HCP) and LEO did that.....

[Guest justme]

An individual in Pennsylvania has this happen to him some time back--they asked him for his SS# which they are not allowed to do to the best of my knowledge--and he now has then in a civil rights lawsuit.

You should not allow this to pass quietly into that good night.

You were not even required to answer their questions.

They did not have the right to detain you without some RAS that you were or already in the process of committing a crime. Get copies of the reports, and file a complaint with the police, and speak to a lawyer about whether you have a legal case against them.

Harassment is simply wrong and should NEVER be tolerated by the people.

Edited March 29, 2009 by justme

[Fallguy]

An individual in Pennsylvania has this happen to him some time back--they asked him for his SS# which they are not allowed to do to the best of my knowledge--and he now has then in a civil rights lawsuit.

You should not allow this to pass quietly into that good night.

You were not even required to answer their questions.

They did not have the right to detain you without some RAS that you were or already in the process of committing a crime. Get copies of the reports, and file a complaint with the police, and speak to a lawyer about whether you have a legal case against them.

I agree the whole situation could have been handled better.

Asking for the SSN, well there could be some consequences.

Very true you are not required to answer questions, but at times, some answers can help you more than hurt you.

But I have to say...they did have reason to detain the OP...at least long enough to determine if he had a HCP. In TN it is illegal to carry a loaded weapon. (39-17-1307) It is a defense to carry if you have a HCP {39-17-1308(a)(2)} So if an officer has cause to believe you are armed (and seeing your exposed weapon is pretty good cause) he can detain you long enough to see your HCP.

Now in states where OC is legal without a permit...that is a different story.

[Guest JHatmaker]

But I have to say...they did have reason to detain the OP...at least long enough to determine if he had a HCP. In TN it is illegal to carry a loaded weapon. (39-17-1307) It is a defense to carry if you have a HCP {39-17-1308(a)(2)} So if an officer has cause to believe you are armed (and seeing your exposed weapon is pretty good cause) he can detain you long enough to see your HCP.

I completely agree with this, and you have to understand one thing; not everyone thinks the same way we do. You do have every right to carry your gun however you want to, but understand that if you do have your bright & shiny 1911 (which is beautiful to me) exposed in broad daylight, someone is going to freak out b/c it's scary as ***** to them...

Now the LEO's had no reason to act like the did, but don't be upset that someone called them b/c they saw you carrying a gun, people are going to do that, and it will never change. With all that being said, continue to carry however you like to, just remember that outside the pants will probably cause you more hassles than concealed.

[I_Like_Pie]

I can see where the officer was being brash, but not sure that he did anything illegal. If he did not ask you about being in a gang or your SSN would you have been equally upset about the incident?

If I was an officer I would have done exactly the same thing...but a lot nicer

[S&WForty]

exposed in broad daylight, someone is going to freak out b/c it's scary as ***** to them...

I just got turned onto guns in the last 1.5-2 years. Count me as someone that would have his eyes bugged out at the sight of an exposed gun before I got into all this. Would I have called the police? No, I'd just get out of that person's area. Too bad there's no simple way to educate everyone.

[Angus]

Just keep in mind kids, LEO's have a job to do, and just because you are not exposed to the douchebags they have to deal with on a daily basis doesn't mean these douchebags do not exist.

I do not feel Mitch is a DB, nor do I feel his actions are DB related, but...for their safety and the safety of the public, LEO's have to verify your specific level of D-Baggery. Once they verified Mitch was a level 0, he was on his way. Yeah it's a hassle to OC, but if you want to practice and protect your rights, then you won't mind the hassle. It's not like they locked you up, or confiscated your weapon.

[Fallguy]

I don't think the OP had a problem with the officers checking him per se. Or that it was illegal. It was just they weren't as professional as they could be.

My response about the legality of being detained was to the post that said...

They did not have the right to detain you without some RAS that you were or already in the process of committing a crime.

Not to the OP.

[Guest slothful1]

In TN it is illegal to carry a loaded weapon. (39-17-1307) It is a defense to carry if you have a HCP {39-17-1308(a)(2)}

Someday, maybe someone will be able to explain to me the crucial distinction between something being illegal, but having a permit as a 'defense', versus something being illegal without a license (e.g., operating a motor vehicle on public roads, etc.).

[Fallguy]

Someday, maybe someone will be able to explain to me the crucial distinction between something being illegal, but having a permit as a 'defense', versus something being illegal without a license (e.g., operating a motor vehicle on public roads, etc.).

This is not going to be the best legal explanation and IANAL, but this is they way I take it and the way it was explained to me once.

To you use your example about driving. There is no law against driving. There is not a law that says "You can not drive". There is simply a law that requires you to have a DL to drive on public roadways. That is one reason a LEO can't stop you just to see if you have a DL.

But there is a law against the carry of a firearm. There is a law that says "You can not carry a loaded weapon". However the legislature has come up with a list of situations/actions in which it is ok for you to have/carry a loaded weapon. So these situations/actions are defenses to the illegal activity of having/carrying a weapon. That is one reason an officer can detain you if you are armed, just to see if you have a HCP.

Clear as mud now?

[MikeW]

I wanna see the gang that has 52 year old gang members packin heat into the Dollar store. The "NRA" gang made me LOL.

OP sorry that you had to deal with the Hendersonville police but sounds like they let you go without too much greif. The SS# and gang member questions would have gotten to me as well. However, all in all I would have let it slide after they checked me out and let me go.

[Oh Shoot]

....That is one reason a LEO can't stop you just to see if you have a DL....

They can stop you at any time to check anything, without cause.

Otherwise they couldn't do the mass checkpoint stops.

- OS

[Guest crotalus01]

And at those mass checkpoint stops you can ask, "Am I being detained?" until they admit no you are not, at which point you are free to go. That is, unless you give them a reason to detain you (or they make one up like smelling pot smoke). If they cannot articulate reasonable suspicion that you have comitted or are about to commit a crime there is no requirement legally to show a drivers license, proof of insurance, or anything else to them as they have no legitimate reason for stopping you.

Will this attitude get you in some crap from time to time? Absolutely. But keep in mind most cops know they are flirting with a lawsuit over civil rights infringements when they encounter a citizen who knows what the limitations of reasonable search and seizure laws are - most times they let you go. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS and know what the police are legally allowed (and not allowed) to do.

[Guest slothful1]

This is not going to be the best legal explanation and IANAL, but this is they way I take it and the way it was explained to me once.

To you use your example about driving. There is no law against driving. There is not a law that says "You can not drive". There is simply a law that requires you to have a DL to drive on public roadways. That is one reason a LEO can't stop you just to see if you have a DL.

But there is a law against the carry of a firearm. There is a law that says "You can not carry a loaded weapon". However the legislature has come up with a list of situations/actions in which it is ok for you to have/carry a loaded weapon. So these situations/actions are defenses to the illegal activity of having/carrying a weapon. That is one reason an officer can detain you if you are armed, just to see if you have a HCP.

Clear as mud now?

The driver's license law says "No person, except those expressly exempted in this section, shall drive any motor vehicle upon a highway in this state unless the person has a valid driver license under the provisions of this chapter for the type or class of vehicle being driven" [ TCA 55-50-301(a)(1) ]

For the carry law, the 'defense' bit is a separate section rather than being included in the prohibition (as the driver's license is above) but I still don't get the difference. I guess you could argue that HCP holders are actually *breaking* the law, but that the permit allows the state to turn a blind eye to it... but that flies in the face of 39-17-1351®(2) which speaks of being able to carry "lawfully." How can it be an illegal activity if the LAW says can be done "lawfully"?

Everyone knows that somebody calling 911 to report "a man driving a car" would (rightly) be told to pound sand. My gut tells me that the only reason "a man with a gun" is treated any different is that DL holders vastly outnumber HCP holders.

Secondly, LEOs, like HCP holders, are not mentioned at all in the law prohibiting carry (TCA 39-17-1307) -- they are in a separate section from HCP holders (1315 instead of 1351) but the 'defenses' section (1308) treats them exactly the same. Does anyone here want to argue that a "cop with a gun" 911 call is going to get the same treatment as a "man with a gun"?

[Fallguy]

They can stop you at any time to check anything, without cause.

Otherwise they couldn't do the mass checkpoint stops.

- OS

That is not correct.

There are strict guidelines on them being able to conduct checkpoints. Read here

Now...there are many reasons that a LEO can find to stop you, no License Plate Light, failing to signal a turn, unsafe lane change, following to closely and so on and so on that he can use as a reason to stop you even if he is really wanting to check something else. But....they can not stop you for no reason.