Had my first negetive encounter with LEO in Hendersonville ..

[deerslayer]

If I find that you are being evasive, I will simply start asking more questions in a nice and polite manner. If I find that you are not being evasive, I care less that your an assh*le, its not against the law. Of course, I can be an assh*le too and instead of writing a warning, turn it into a real citation.

So not cheerfully offering your social security number is being an assh*le. Wow.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

guys, with so many fake ID's LEO's have to ask for social somtimes to confirm an identity... di the guy go too far, probably... but he was in the realm of doing his job.

Wanna avoid all this hassel with cops that have nothing to do but follow some of you around and violate your rights.... dont give them a reason to speak to you... dont open carry!

Its really simple as that.

[Guest JLowe]

So not cheerfully offering your social security number is being an assh*le. Wow.

Never said that. Its your non cooperative attitude that makes you an assh*le. We are just doing our job and if you wish to make it harder for us, well don't get upset when that attitude gets returned in like manner. I care not how happy you are, as long as you cooperate and do what is asked, as long as its within the law and not illegal. LEO's are not out to "get" you, and only you can draw their attention to yourself by violating the law or arousing reasonable suspicion, failure to do either will keep you free from having, in your mind, your "rights" violated. Now, you have a nice day, sir.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

As I said before, when the officer asked about Gang Affiliation, I HOPE he was asking Mitch because he asks everyone that he field interviews the same questions. He SHOULD do this because there will be a time when he asks someone who better fits the age range (in this case) and he can honestly testify in court that he asks everyone the same questions. So, when the wrong person wants to complain that he profiled them or otherwise violated their rights, the LEO can have a defense in that he asks everyone the "standard" field interview questions.

I know of some gang members that are in their 50's and up.

[Guest Archimedes]

First off...My sincere condolences, Mitch, for your loss. You and yours will be in my prayers.

Wow, what an epic thread....

I can't even remember all the points I wanted to make, so here goes nothing...

I've had good and bad experiences with LEO's. Mostly the bad was when I was not actually being directly confronted or detained for any reason. I also know several LEOs on all levels...THP, County, City...

THP guys are usually top-notch. I actually can't remember a bad experience with THP and I even know a couple personally and they are great guys who treat people with the utmost respect and professionalism.

I know one county deputy who, at least at the beginning of her career, was an avid drug user and my ex-father-in-law is a high-ranking veteran who is very well-known and generally considered to be a prick and a terrible LEO....how he continues to be in law enforcement is beyond me as he's one of the biggest morons I've ever met...and I assure you that opinion has NOTHING to do with his daughter.

The city here is a mixed bag....I went to school with a couple guys and they are pretty cool, but one decided that he just didn't want the job anymore and the other still works as far as I know and he always just tried to do the best job he could. Another guy is one of the best guys I've ever met in law enforcement, but he was recently suspended for...not sure what exactly, but he tended to hang around with unscroupulous types for reasons unknown to me...I figured it was to kinda say 'Hey, we're not all bad guys and I can be cool with anyone.' Never would have thought he would have done anything illegal or wrong.

I used to be a pizza delivery driver and my current job keeps me on the streets quite a bit....several city LEOs simply directing traffic have been outright d**ks to me for simply trying to do MY job.

I've always wanted to be in law enforcement and I even tried with the city a few years ago. I scored third highest on the test and beat EVERYONE in the obstacle course, but there were a couple guys with military experience and I guess that trumps pretty much anything else...Rightfully so, I suppose.

I pretty much knew that I wouldn't make it when it came down to the eye exam anyway since one of my eyes is less than 20/40 and uncorrectable with lens or surgery. Pretty sure (as stated by several others here) that I could still out-shoot most LEOs since I've dedicated quite a bit of time to my shooting skills....I've seen lots of the 'World's Wildest' genre of TV and I've seen several videos where the LEO and BG where less than ten feet from each other and both missed with every shot...lol

Anyhow...

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this before, but would it be a good idea for anyone who wanted to OC to get one of those lanyards with a clear plastic ID holder like the ones frequent flyers use to keep their passports in? It would certainly keep you from reaching anywhere you shouldn't on those 'man with a gun' calls and might even deter the call for backup in the first place. Can't be as bad as one of those stupid badges.

~archi

Edited April 3, 2009 by Archimedes

[mcurrier]

I know of some gang members that are in their 50's and up.

They live that long? I thought life expectancy was 20-something.

[Guest JLowe]

They live that long? I thought life expectancy was 20-something.

they also say that the life expectancy for a meth cook is 5 years, but I know some who've been at it for far longer. You just never know anymore. I would also say that he's referring to bikers. I can say that I know several at least that age and older. some people just won't die.

[mcurrier]

I would also say that he's referring to bikers. I can say that I know several at least that age and older. some people just won't die.

I kind of assumed that, but I personally don't consider bikers to be the 'gang' types that are mostly around today. If I was interviewing a denim vest wearing, scarf/bandana wearing 50-something year old Dennis Hopper looking guy, I would not ask him if he were in a 'gang'. 20-30 years ago maybe, not these days, but that's just me.

Edited April 4, 2009 by mcurrier
spelling

[Guest Tn.Mitch]

I do not know if gangs are a huge problem in Hendersonville, but gangs are everywhere nowadays...it just depends on to what extent they want to make themselves known.

And I agree, I do not look like I would fit in a gang and would be taken aback if asked that question....my only point is, giving the OP's physionomy that he is not the typical gang member profile, there was a reason to ask that question. I don't know what the reason was, I wasn't there...but there was a reason.

I just stopped in the Dollar store,on New Shackle Island rd.to pick up a few things before going home,some dog treats,some batterys,and stuff of that nature,while I was minding my own bussiness,there was a park patrol,watching my every criminal move,to the check out,where I paid for my items,the check out lady had seen me many times there,and I had a Milt Sparks VM2 IWB,in it a tiny Glock 27,im not breaking any laws,bothering anyone,acting crazy,running up and down the isles shooting up the place,I was just the same as everyone else in that store,but for the park patrol,thats where this a;ll started and why it all happened in the first place.I have open carried in Wally world,OWB 1911sI have been eye to eye with many hendersonville police before there,they never even asked me for my permit,just a nod,and id nod back,im a 53 year old man with solid grey hair,not some gang banger,with my pants hanging down4 inches below my but crack,with my gun hanging out of my pocket,smoking a blunt.So you tell me why not at wally world,but at Dollars store???same city,same part of town.im not in the hood,in Nashville???Maybe your a gang memberif ya shop at the dollar atore,and your safe at Wallyworld????who knows,but,like I said before I was raised to respect my elders and people of athority,I felt I gave it,but did not recieve it,but was treated like a criminal,for carrying a gun,which is my right to do so.Thats the first thing the LEO asked me when I got close to the exit,and he stepped out...What are you doing carrying that gun???I couldnt believe it,and he was grinng and smurking at me like,whats your problem out here with a gun and your not a LEO??I knew at that moment it wasent going to be plesant,for me anyway.When asked about being in a gang I said are you kidding me,I think im a little to old for a gang,thats when the Park patrol said,hey I was in a gang called the army.now im in a gang called LEO.I swear to God,thats what he said word,for word,he and the policeman were the 2 having fun,they had a very young rookie with them,the patrolman did,he was the one running my id,My gun was on my rightside at n4:00,I keep my wallet in my Left rear pocket,they wouldnt even lelt me pull it out,the park patrol pulled it out,handed it to me,while the whole store was watching all this unfold,Reality TV right??remember,im wearing a IWB holster on right side,little G27 grip,about 2 inchs long,not one of my hog leg 1911s,Then he asked if I was afilitilated with any gang members,im being tottally disrespected now,big time,then,the asked me if I still lived at that adddy,what was my Phone#??? SS#,at this point,im expecting,Rod Sterling,of the Twilight Zone to come walking in smoking a cigerate,talking about tonights story,What are they teaching you guys up at school now???again Smurking at me,he thought he wqs being really cute I guess,I had made only one mistake,I was wearing a gun,and he didnt like it because I wasent a cop,excuse me LEO,I believe that now and allways will,it was there Gang mentality ,that was the thing at work.You know how they say people will gang up on a single person,when if they were alone they would not do it,but all together as a gang,its like,Im not doing anything,the others are doing it...so to me they were the GANG.!!!1 on 1 ive had no problems with open carry 1911s with other LEOS,1 off duty park patrol,and 1 LEO,bored,teaching a Rookie how to handle the sheep(John Q Public) me.I dont blame the rookie,its the other 2 that were haveing such fun,with this whole thing,I could hear them as I limpped back to my handlcap parking spot right down front,by the door,because thats what my lisence tag says,ive had a majior stroke on my left side in 2001,had both my hips replaced in 2005,and One of my legs is alittle shorter than the other,I have a walking cane in my back seat,I use in wallyworld alot,its hard for me to walk ,very far or long...Im not complaing about my health,hey any day above ground is a good day,but im only 53 and ive been through alot allready with phycial rehab and such...A Gang member???Who do you think was acting like a gang??I could hear the park patrol telling the 2 cops,yeah I spotted him as soon as he came in the store,and called you guys right away,high fivin,I guess too,I didnt turn around to see if they were or not,I had had quite enough,and let me say ,20 years ago,I would have not taken it well at all,I would have been locked up,but that would have really have made there day.

[Guest Tn.Mitch]

First off...My sincere condolences, Mitch, for your loss. You and yours will be in my prayers.

Wow, what an epic thread....

I can't even remember all the points I wanted to make, so here goes nothing...

I've had good and bad experiences with LEO's. Mostly the bad was when I was not actually being directly confronted or detained for any reason. I also know several LEOs on all levels...THP, County, City...

THP guys are usually top-notch. I actually can't remember a bad experience with THP and I even know a couple personally and they are great guys who treat people with the utmost respect and professionalism.

I know one county deputy who, at least at the beginning of her career, was an avid drug user and my ex-father-in-law is a high-ranking veteran who is very well-known and generally considered to be a prick and a terrible LEO....how he continues to be in law enforcement is beyond me as he's one of the biggest morons I've ever met...and I assure you that opinion has NOTHING to do with his daughter.

The city here is a mixed bag....I went to school with a couple guys and they are pretty cool, but one decided that he just didn't want the job anymore and the other still works as far as I know and he always just tried to do the best job he could. Another guy is one of the best guys I've ever met in law enforcement, but he was recently suspended for...not sure what exactly, but he tended to hang around with unscroupulous types for reasons unknown to me...I figured it was to kinda say 'Hey, we're not all bad guys and I can be cool with anyone.' Never would have thought he would have done anything illegal or wrong.

I used to be a pizza delivery driver and my current job keeps me on the streets quite a bit....several city LEOs simply directing traffic have been outright d**ks to me for simply trying to do MY job.

I've always wanted to be in law enforcement and I even tried with the city a few years ago. I scored third highest on the test and beat EVERYONE in the obstacle course, but there were a couple guys with military experience and I guess that trumps pretty much anything else...Rightfully so, I suppose.

I pretty much knew that I wouldn't make it when it came down to the eye exam anyway since one of my eyes is less than 20/40 and uncorrectable with lens or surgery. Pretty sure (as stated by several others here) that I could still out-shoot most LEOs since I've dedicated quite a bit of time to my shooting skills....I've seen lots of the 'World's Wildest' genre of TV and I've seen several videos where the LEO and BG where less than ten feet from each other and both missed with every shot...lol

Anyhow...

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this before, but would it be a good idea for anyone who wanted to OC to get one of those lanyards with a clear plastic ID holder like the ones frequent flyers use to keep their passports in? It would certainly keep you from reaching anywhere you shouldn't on those 'man with a gun' calls and might even deter the call for backup in the first place. Can't be as bad as one of those stupid badges.

~archi

epic thread for sure...Thanks for all your thought and prayers guys and gals...ive been keeeping my gun coverd up in Dollar store,

[Guest JLowe]

epic thread for sure...Thanks for all your thought and prayers guys and gals...ive been keeeping my gun coverd up in Dollar store,

Your welcome. I'm glad to hear that you've been covering up, don't want you to have to deal with the bullsh*t again. I could go on and on about the why and how of the questions you had to deal with, but I will keep it short with this. We are training our officers to look further in to incidents and people they come across. Now that being said, they should learn who and when to look further and when to take things at face value. You obviously experienced an occasion where they could not discern which type of incident they were dealing with, if the incident went according to what you reported (not calling you a liar or dishonest, we just only got one point of view). I am a big proponent of CC over OC. My point of view is that nobody will know that I am carrying until its time to deploy my weapon. Another reason is as a officer I get tired of fools calling in about armed persons who are HCP holders. I am sorry that you feel disrespected and I can understand the embarrassment. I know that when these incidents occur people get bent out of shape claiming that the officers went to far, violated someones civil rights, of to quote from a previous post "exceeded their authority", but reality is they did not and were only doing their jobs. Their attitude may not exude true professionalism, but thats just life. You can't control others, only yourself. I would say that the biggest part of the incident that makes you feel like it was so negative was the embarrassment that you felt when all those people were watching. Sorry it got so long, had more to say than I thought.

[Guest TackleberryTom]

Wanna avoid all this hassel with cops that have nothing to do but follow some of you around and violate your rights.... dont give them a reason to speak to you... dont open carry!

Its really simple as that.

I know this thread wasn't about OC vs CC. I agree that the officers could have treated you better. But comments like "don't open carry" make me want to call the cops when I see someone CC. I see them all the time. If you are CC do you have something to hide? If you are going to CC then make sure it is absolutely hidden or someone should call the cops on you then. The whole "hidden advantage" thing is ridiculous. Wait.....hold on... don't rob me....I have a gun....just give me a min to get it out!! well my $.02:koolaid:

[Guest db99wj]

OC vs CC. Doesn't matter in my book, glad we have the ability for both, don't want to lose either, at all. Both are equally important in my book. Many fought for this and understand how they came to be. Do what you like, what you prefer, be prepared for what comes along with it...hmm, that was an interesting comment wasn't it. Let me explain further. You decide to OC. Dumbass antigun, non-knowledgable citizen sees you OC'ing your gun, and calls the cops hysterical. "A MAN WITH A GUN HERE AT WALMARTS, HELP!!!" "Maam, calm down, what is he doing?" "He is picking out tomato's." "Is he pointing the gun?" "No, it is in his waistband?" "Maam, we have a unit on the way" Unit gets the call about a man with a gun at walmart, in the produce section. The unit is not sure what they are going to encounter when they get there, so they are on high alert and being uber cautious. They get there, they are more forceable than normal due to the nature of the call(maybe even a little loud and barking orders at you opposed to asking gently), which might include disarming you, and asking a set set of questions to determine what is going on. Once they find out that you are a law abiding permit holder who is excercising their right to OC, then the situation should descalate. Then hopefully, the LEO will explain to the dumbass mentioned earlier that the person in question is a law abiding citizen that has gone through extensive background checks and is legally carrying a firearm out in public for all to see.

I say all of this and I have no formal police training. I try to put myself in their shoes and approach a situation. If I was a LEO, got a call about a man with a gun, you are damn right I'm going to be a little more abrupt, forceful, and maybe somewhat an a$$hole until I figure out what is going on. I would prefer not getting shot. But also I want to say, that LEO should be respectfull as well and not cross any lines or violate any rights, that is a given and should not be tolerated from the LEO profession nor from the public, and steps should be taken if these rights are trampled on. From what I understand, man with gun that is taken down and introduced to the pavement is not a violation of rights.

OC vs CC. I prefer to CC. I CC 99.9999% of the time. I just don't want people noticing me. I already drive a vehicle that garners some additional attention. OC, I have done this, I will do this in the futer some too, usually it is a quick jaunt to the grocery store or to the gas station at night, but it may not, I like the option and want to keep the option. I also don't want to be hassled if I am CC'ing and I reach up for something on the top shelf, (being 5'9" with shoes on, I have to reach quite often), and if I expose my handgun, I don't have to worry about getting nailed.

Deterrent argument. I don't buy it. There doesn't appear to be any documentation of this. Either way. Think about a C-store robbery, it is usally between the clerk and the robber. They wait until the store is empty, usually. They don't just bust in randomly and rob the place, the less people the better. Banks, same way, most robbery's are done at off peak hours. Not during the lunch crowd. I guess if you are OC'ing and a robber comes in, they might wait until you leave, or they might shoot you first, really no way to say due to the lack of documentation.

This is my , right or wrong, it's mine.

Edited April 6, 2009 by db99wj

[Guest TackleberryTom]

Do what you like, what you prefer, be prepared for what comes along with it.

I agree with your post. But be prepared...CC will not exclude you from getting the police called on you. I used to live in Florida and they do not allow OC and the police are called on CC's there as well. Ironically, though in my experience (doesn't mean it is definitive) most criminals with guns are caught with them concealed. Seems like most crims would not be OC with a $75 holster. Price of holster doesn't matter, just using example. So, said all that to say, if I were a LEO and was called to "man with gun" and it was concealed or not readily visible, I would make sure that he was completely unable to get to anything because I don't know where the gun is! VS. OC I can clearly see the gun and there is a little less unknown element.

Just some ideas.. obviusly like you stated, this is all hypothetical and every situation is different and must be properly handled accordingly.

[Glock30Owner]

guys, with so many fake ID's LEO's have to ask for social somtimes to confirm an identity... di the guy go too far, probably... but he was in the realm of doing his job.

Wanna avoid all this hassel with cops that have nothing to do but follow some of you around and violate your rights.... dont give them a reason to speak to you... dont open carry!

Its really simple as that.

I'm sorry, but the back of my SS card it says "Not to be used for Identification".

Oh, I always open carry, too. Never had any problem with MNPD.

[Glock30Owner]

Never said that. Its your non cooperative attitude that makes you an assh*le. We are just doing our job and if you wish to make it harder for us, well don't get upset when that attitude gets returned in like manner. I care not how happy you are, as long as you cooperate and do what is asked, as long as its within the law and not illegal. LEO's are not out to "get" you, and only you can draw their attention to yourself by violating the law or arousing reasonable suspicion, failure to do either will keep you free from having, in your mind, your "rights" violated. Now, you have a nice day, sir.

When did exercising a right or acting in an entirely lawful manner make anyone an assh*le?

Since I OC exclusively, I will provide my HCP upon demand, as the law requires, but the law doesn't require me to listen to a lecture (something that is a common occurance in OC/MWAG stops). Nor does the law require me to answer any questions.

If the Hendersonville Police would have just checkout the info on the HCP and said thanks, there never would have been an issue. Police have no need or duty to tell somone to stop preforming a legal activity.

[eehlert]

I will never understand how some folks become experts on the law, through use of the internet and other popular media AND insist on "exercising their rights" on the side of the road, by making the encounter with an LEO more difficult. Attitudes like "the law does not require me to answer any questions" only makes the situation worse.

Anyone ever consider simply cooperating with LEO's...as long as the LEO's are respectful? More and more people are taking the low road nowadays. And revel in their bravado and hubris that they "beat the system".

There was a lawyer in Nashville who used to tell clients/the public to not roll down the window, but only hold the DL up to the window for the LEO to look at. Any questions asked...have a notepad handy to write the answers down and likewise, hold up to the window for the officer to read. Is this legal? Under certain circumstances, yes, but why make the situation worse?

And having the attitude, "when did exercising a right or acting in an entirely lawful manner make anyone an assh*le?" makes this world what it has become. So I ask you, Glock30Owner, the following:

If I call your mother a less than reputable name or curse your dog, doesn't that make me an assh*le? It is still legal for me to say whatever I want to you and you can't do anything about it, but that doesn't protect my reputation. I am still an a-hole. And inversely, if you were stopped for speeding and issued a citation, exaclty how bold are YOU when dealing with the LEO that is acting respectfully?

As for the SS card not to be used as Identification. That is true, it does not serve the purpose of accurately identifying someone by itself, but I hate to burst your bubble, it is a form of identification....just ask the IRS.

[Guest db99wj]

I will never understand how some folks become experts on the law, through use of the internet and other popular media AND insist on "exercising their rights" on the side of the road, by making the encounter with an LEO more difficult. Attitudes like "the law does not require me to answer any questions" only makes the situation worse.

Anyone ever consider simply cooperating with LEO's...as long as the LEO's are respectful? More and more people are taking the low road nowadays. And revel in their bravado and hubris that they "beat the system".

There was a lawyer in Nashville who used to tell clients/the public to not roll down the window, but only hold the DL up to the window for the LEO to look at. Any questions asked...have a notepad handy to write the answers down and likewise, hold up to the window for the officer to read. Is this legal? Under certain circumstances, yes, but why make the situation worse?

And having the attitude, "when did exercising a right or acting in an entirely lawful manner make anyone an assh*le?" makes this world what it has become. So I ask you, Glock30Owner, the following:

If I call your mother a less than reputable name or curse your dog, doesn't that make me an assh*le? It is still legal for me to say whatever I want to you and you can't do anything about it, but that doesn't protect my reputation. I am still an a-hole. And inversely, if you were stopped for speeding and issued a citation, exaclty how bold are YOU when dealing with the LEO that is acting respectfully?

As for the SS card not to be used as Identification. That is true, it does not serve the purpose of accurately identifying someone by itself, but I hate to burst your bubble, it is a form of identification....just ask the IRS.

Good post. Too many people think that LEO's are the enemy and have decided that any and every encounter is going to be a nightmare of rights violations and not complying with this and that, and so on. They have this predisposed notion that the stop is not going to be fair. And this is not true. If you get pulled over, there is a problem, you have broken a law....period. The way the stop goes from there is up to you. By spouting off that I'm not going to do that, I don't have to do this and coming across as hostile, will get you a more unpleasant stop. It sucks to be stopped, it is typically going to cost you time and money due to the citation. But YOU did break the law. If you don't agree, go to court and fight the charges, you have that right. If you think or you are treated unfairly, file a report, call their supervisor, that is your right as well. It always seems the person with the biggest problems with LEO's are the same ones that are having the most problems with LEO's and they might need to check themselves to see if THEY are the problem.(This isn't directed toward any individual, it is more of a generalization, if you are offended by my comments, then you probably need to reexamine yourself).

Another disclaimer, I am not a LEO, never been a LEO, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night. However, I have been pulled over due to me breaking the law (speeding and tail light) and have been through two road blocks (sobriety and seat belt) since I have been carrying. Got tickets on the speeding and tail light, but had pleasant conversations with both City of Memphis police officers.

Just my

[Guest TackleberryTom]

If you get pulled over, there is a problem, you have broken a law....period.

Well, that isn't always the case. I have been pulled over a few times for being a young guy in a car that looked fast!! Had not broken any laws and did not receive any ticket. I still have respect for LEO's, my father was a LEO. I have no problem with them checking my info. I really don't care to be harrassed for something I am doing that they simply don't like, though I haven't really had any problem with that happening.

[Guest db99wj]

Well, that isn't always the case. I have been pulled over a few times for being a young guy in a car that looked fast!! Had not broken any laws and did not receive any ticket. I still have respect for LEO's, my father was a LEO. I have no problem with them checking my info. I really don't care to be harrassed for something I am doing that they simply don't like, though I haven't really had any problem with that happening.

Ok clarification noted. There are a lot of what if's that I chose not to go into. We could go into profiling, matching the description of a person of interest, escaped convict, et al.

[Glock30Owner]

And inversely, if you were stopped for speeding and issued a citation, exaclty how bold are YOU when dealing with the LEO that is acting respectfully?

On those occasions that I have been stopped for any trafic violation, I hand the officer my DL, Insurance card, and registration. Then I keep my mouth shut.

I'm not advocating getting into a verbal dispute with anyone. I'll accept a breief chewing out if I was speeding or violating some other trafic law.

A more appropriate scenario would be if you are driving a dark colored car and the LEO pulled you over to lecture you about how that car is bad for the enviroment because it takes more energy for the AC to cool the interior on a hot day. And how you are contributing to the melting of the global icecaps, when the LEO is driving a dark colored car as well.

[Guest JLowe]

A more appropriate scenario would be if you are driving a dark colored car and the LEO pulled you over to lecture you about how that car is bad for the environment because it takes more energy for the AC to cool the interior on a hot day. And how you are contributing to the melting of the global icecaps, when the LEO is driving a dark colored car as well.

WTF are you talking about? That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

When did exercising a right or acting in an entirely lawful manner make anyone an assh*le?

Never said that exercising you rights in a respectful manner mad you an assh*le. I said that an uncooperative attitude makes people an assh*le. We are just trying to do our jobs and ignorant attempts at "exercising my rights" just make things harder and extends the time of contact.

Since I OC exclusively, I will provide my HCP upon demand, as the law requires, but the law doesn't require me to listen to a lecture (something that is a common occurance in OC/MWAG stops). Nor does the law require me to answer any questions.

Your correct, the law does not require you to answer questions that would cause you to bear witness against yourself and help to convict you of a crime you have committed. But failure to comply with lawful orders and answer questions that are identifiers, is not a "right" and are required to be answered. Like I said before, I don't care how you carry, but you are the person who has to deal the repercussions of it, like the lectures that you seem to like so much.

[Glock30Owner]

WTF are you talking about? That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

When did exercising a right or acting in an entirely lawful manner make anyone an assh*le?

Never said that exercising you rights in a respectful manner mad you an assh*le. I said that an uncooperative attitude makes people an assh*le. We are just trying to do our jobs and ignorant attempts at "exercising my rights" just make things harder and extends the time of contact.

Since I OC exclusively, I will provide my HCP upon demand, as the law requires, but the law doesn't require me to listen to a lecture (something that is a common occurance in OC/MWAG stops). Nor does the law require me to answer any questions.

Your correct, the law does not require you to answer questions that would cause you to bear witness against yourself and help to convict you of a crime you have committed. But failure to comply with lawful orders and answer questions that are identifiers, is not a "right" and are required to be answered. Like I said before, I don't care how you carry, but you are the person who has to deal the repercussions of it, like the lectures that you seem to like so much.

How about I make this perfectly clear for you.

I'm walking down Galatin Rd in East Nashville. Some "good citizen" calls in a MWAG and you respond and see me. You investigate and demand my HCP, I provide it. Everything checks out. That should be the end of the contact.

But, apprently you will start asking me where I'm going, what I'm doing and all sorts of other questions that the law doesn't require me to answer. I may say nothing or I may tell you that it is none of your business.

I am not required to answer any querstion you, as a LEO, pose to me. If I am carrying, I must provide my HCP on demand, if I'm driving, I must provide DL, proof of insurance, and registration. If I'm just walking around (unarmed) I just have to identify myself, verbally. Beyond that, I (or anyone else) has the right to remain silent (even if not arrested).

Using the typical tactics, of bad or lazy LEOs, of browbeating someone, threatening them with arrest on trumped up charges, or even cuffing them to "force them to volunteer" more information IS a violation of their rights.

LEOs walk a very fine line, but the instant anyone of them crosses the line (even by a fraction of a nanometer) they need to be legally slapped silly. There is no excuse for any LEO to violate the rights of anyone.

[Fallguy]

I think those representing each side of the issue are basically correct on the last few post.

Of course there are extremes on each side and you can sight at least one instance for almost any scenario.

[Guest db99wj]

On those occasions that I have been stopped for any trafic violation, I hand the officer my DL, Insurance card, and registration. Then I keep my mouth shut.

I'm not advocating getting into a verbal dispute with anyone. I'll accept a breief chewing out if I was speeding or violating some other trafic law.

A more appropriate scenario would be if you are driving a dark colored car and the LEO pulled you over to lecture you about how that car is bad for the enviroment because it takes more energy for the AC to cool the interior on a hot day. And how you are contributing to the melting of the global icecaps, when the LEO is driving a dark colored car as well.

Why are you getting an asschewing? I've been pulled over, mentioned the ones with my permit, I'll recap, 4 total, 2 road blocks, and 1 for speeding, 1 for tail light and I have NEVER got an asschewing, NEVER, not once. It appears, by your words, that you are, with my experience in getting pulled over, I have to come to the conclusion that the LEO is not the problem, it's you.