ANyone use Hard-cast lead ammo for .38 and semi-autos?

[crc4]

I'm looking to try out hard-cast lead ammo for SD carry and am interested if anyone has experience with it. Thanks.

Edited December 20, 2022 by crc4

[krunchnik]

Hard cast is deeper penetrating than a hollow point -

Not generally accepted for a self defense round due to over penetration and pass thru-

I use hard cast for most of my target and range loads due to cost factor-I reload most everything I shoot-other than defensive rounds which I keep with good factory loads-

[chances R]

Interesting, from your Branca background you would look at hardcadt for anything but wad cutters in snub revolvers.

[crc4]

55 minutes ago, chances R said:

Interesting, from your Branca background you would look at hardcadt for anything but wad cutters in snub revolvers.

It would be for j-frame Model 49, plus 9x18 or .380 as it seems that HPs in those calibers don't perform as one might wish. Take a look at this.

Wadcutters for SD

I would only carry factory ammo for SD, no handloads.

Edited December 20, 2022 by crc4

[crc4]

As an aside, when I was a detective I loaded reverse wadcutters in this same Bodyguard and qualified. Wouldn't carry that load today for legal reasons.

[crc4]

1 hour ago, krunchnik said:

Hard cast is deeper penetrating than a hollow point -

Not generally accepted for a self defense round due to over penetration and pass thru-

I use hard cast for most of my target and range loads due to cost factor-I reload most everything I shoot-other than defensive rounds which I keep with good factory loads-

Yet, it seems that the low velocity of HP rounds shot in short barrels do not do well when going through material before reaching the subject, while the wadcutters do penetrate outer layers.

Plus there's the benefit of lower recoil with wadcutters. 

I'd like to see a side-by-side test using ballistic gel with denim material in front.

[Defender]

4 hours ago, chances R said:

Interesting, from your Branca background you would look at hardcadt for anything but wad cutters in snub revolvers.

Branca?

[crc4]

1 hour ago, Defender said:

Branca?

Andrew Branca. An attorney who specializes in Self Defense law, Author of  The Law of Self Defense: The Indispensable Guide to the Armed Citizen

Those who teach how to react to a self-defense shooting advise to never carry handloads, only factory ammo as a prosecutor could attempt to make hay with a jury that your were carrying handloads 'designed to blowup, destroy, annihilate, and obliterate' any human flesh. 

Plus, forensics are unable to test handloads reliably due to the various recipes by handloaders as opposed to factory ammo with its known characteristics.

Factory loads are all I carry; not all I shoot, but all I carry for SD.

It's an excellent book that far too many SD people will never read.

Edited December 21, 2022 by crc4

[Wheelgunner]

What little I've read is that lead hard cast ammo penetrates further than hollow point rounds and is only recommended as a self-defense round when you specifically need that feature (e.g., for wildlife).

The Ballistics by the Inch website might have some gel test data on hard cast in .38 or .357 - you may want to check that out.

[ohell]

Reloads much better then smile and wait for flash on compensator, other aggressive comments on a striker cover, social media comments…  attending self defense training classes has been twisted into you manufactured this event.  They come after you any way they can. So don’t carry +p ammo either.    

 
use what works for you. hard cast wouldn’t be my choice for concrete jungle predators.  
 

another internet option.  

 

[Garufa]

I’m not sure what I just read.

[Garufa]

Not exactly clear on what is being asked but the if .38 Special is being discussed research the “FBI load”.  158 grain +P hollow point semi-wadcutter.  

[crc4]

Wadcutters as a Self Defense Load in Snubbies

I been hearing a lot about using hard-cast wadcutters in a snub nosed .38 from various sources I respect. The above is another article that gives additional info.

I usually have Remington +P in my Bodyguard, but have considered going with wadcutters again as I did when I was a detective. Something around 900 fps give or take.

Some +P ammo in a snubbie is almost like  a .357 in recoil and flash. Plus the accuracy and ability for faster follow-up shots makes me think I may go back to wadcutters, particularly if I can find a factory load that keeps it around 900fps.

 

[Quavodus]

On 12/20/2022 at 1:56 PM, crc4 said:

It would be for j-frame Model 49, plus 9x18 or .380 as it seems that HPs in those calibers don't perform as one might wish. Take a look at this.

Wadcutters for SD

I would only carry factory ammo for SD, no handloads.

You may have a hard time getting the wadcutters to feed in a .380 and a 9x18.

[crc4]

36 minutes ago, Quavodus said:

You may have a hard time getting the wadcutters to feed in a .380 and a 9x18.

Compared to a typical .38 wadcutter yes.

[JustEd]

Actually there are some 38+p loads in jpg which test out quite well. It is an old but check out Lucky Gunner ammo tests

Two problems with hard cast are excessive penetration and availability in factory loading

There are a couple made for defense. However usually when you see a factory lead 38 it is a mild load for general use or dedicated target shooting

I must also say that while having loaded many semi-was cutter bullets, they were never done with the intention of self defense.

For me a 38+p jhp or go directly to 347 jhp

btw, did you ever try shooting a reversed hollow base wadcutter into gel. Try it sometime. Wimpy penetration. 

[crc4]

2 hours ago, JustEd said:

Actually there are some 38+p loads in jpg which test out quite well. It is an old but check out Lucky Gunner ammo tests

Two problems with hard cast are excessive penetration and availability in factory loading

There are a couple made for defense. However usually when you see a factory lead 38 it is a mild load for general use or dedicated target shooting

I must also say that while having loaded many semi-was cutter bullets, they were never done with the intention of self defense.

For me a 38+p jhp or go directly to 347 jhp

btw, did you ever try shooting a reversed hollow base wadcutter into gel. Try it sometime. Wimpy penetration. 

Never shot the reversed wadcutters into gel, but in those days .38 special SD loads were rare, with many officers carrying round-nose for ease of reloading. My reversed wadcutters were probably closer to +p loads as they were strong in recoil and snappiness, but less than a 2' .357. At 10-15 yards they seemed to be accurate enough with a tendency to keyhole. I never had to shoot anyone with them, but I did believe they would do the trick.

After checking around I'm going to try some of the hard-cast loads and some Honey Badger loads.

I'm a fan of my Bodyguard as a good BU revolver, particularly in wintertime when I can have my hand on the gun in my pocket without drawing any attention and if necessary shoot through the pocket without hanging up as an auto might.

Thanks for your response.

Edited December 28, 2022 by crc4

[Wheelgunner]

Buffalo Bore makes a really hot .357 magnum 180 grain lead hard cast flat nosed round.  That's what I load in my .357 when hiking in the Smokies.  You might check to see if they sell a similar .38 +P cartridge.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Wheelgunner
Spelling goof

[JustEd]

5 hours ago, crc4 said:

Never shot the reversed wadcutters into gel, but in those days .38 special SD loads were rare, with many officers carrying round-nose for ease of reloading. My reversed wadcutters were probably closer to +p loads as they were strong in recoil and snappiness, but less than a 2' .357. At 10-15 yards they seemed to be accurate enough with a tendency to keyhole. I never had to shoot anyone with them, but I did believe they would do the trick.

After checking around I'm going to try some of the hard-cast loads and some Honey Badger loads.

I'm a fan of my Bodyguard as a good BU revolver, particularly in wintertime when I can have my hand on the gun in my pocket without drawing any attention and if necessary shoot through the pocket without hanging up as an auto might.

Thanks for your response.

Same fun here, well one of them. Appreciate you wanting the best load. Have you ever made hardcast hbwc?  I did cast bullets years ago, but the hollow base seemed to difficult. The factory hbwc were all fairly soft lead. That made sense as the idea is for the hollow base to expand and seal against the rifling during firing.  At least for the normal loading. 

[crc4]

41 minutes ago, JustEd said:

Same fun here, well one of them. Appreciate you wanting the best load. Have you ever made hardcast hbwc?  I did cast bullets years ago, but the hollow base seemed to difficult. The factory hbwc were all fairly soft lead. That made sense as the idea is for the hollow base to expand and seal against the rifling during firing.  At least for the normal loading. 

The ones I had handloaded for me were semi-hardcast - harder that normal wadcutters but certainly not the hardcast almost indestructible bullets I see today. I believe I still have some in my safe that are almost 48 years old. 

[JustEd]

Should try them out then. The factory ones I have used actually had a very slight inward taper towards the base.  While it made seating the bullet in case easy, it also necessitated using a tighter crimp than usual. 
 

just fyi. Have fun with it

[leroy]

Have hand loaded a bunch of 148 grainers in the old days.  Generally to about 850 to 900 fps.  They work like a charm... They will tend to keyhole at ranges over 40 yards or so.

Loaded the 158 LSWC at 5.3 grains of Unique with anybody's brass n primers for about 900 fps... This one is the " FBI Load " as I remember.  They work best in K frame pistols n shoot very well.  

Leroy...

[Quavodus]

I like hard cast 158 gr. swc. in both Hp and solid. I've even loaded some 170 gr. swc in .38 cases. I've never tried them to see what kind of penetration they get but, should be good. I've shot some 124 gr. cast RN in 9mm too.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Quavodus