When do you go from Enthusiast to Gunsmith

[mills213]

Just throwing it out there` I am quite sure you all are as passionate as me about guns.  I have spent thousands of hours reading books and magazines and paying special attention when the subject is accuracy.  I have also spent countless hours watching videos and programs on the same.  I have built a lot of AR-15's and have thousands of dollars in tools to do it right.  Barrel dimpling gas block pinning lapping and fitting tools.  I have even started to rebarrel bolt action rifles.  I have rebarrelled one Remington and five Savages.  I just spend way too much on my so called hobby that I wonder when I can start putting my name out there and making a few dollars off of the thousands of dollars in tools that I have acquired.  Just wondering if you all have spent that kind of money on tools to get the utmost accuracy out of your personal firearms and think the same way.  I would love to hear your thoughts.

[DO-TN]

Legally, its when you aquire the FFL and file your business with the state.

Much more to gunsmithing than what you have touched on. Rebluing will be a big request, fitting stocks, manufacturing un-obtainalbe parts on 100 year old revolvers. Milling slides, mill and drill holes, threading barrels concentric for CANs. In top of that, welding/soldering. Taking apart, sourcing, replacing with hand fitting small parts of out-of production guns. That is what my legit neighbor does in his gunsmith shop does all day. He spent years getting formal education though.

Edited December 19, 2022 by DO-TN

[Grayfox54]

I consider myself a fairly talented hobbyist. Like the OP I've read, studied and spent a small fortune on tools and special equipment to tinker with my own guns. I'm pretty good at what I know. But I, in no way, consider my self a gunsmith. 

Just about anybody can put a working gun together from parts. Some can do an exceptional job and make a very accurate custom gun. But can you make a spring for a 100 year old hammer double barrel? Fit a trap gun to its owner? Diagnose and repair any gun that may come through the door regardless of make, model or age? That's what real gunsmiths do every day. Its an art form that takes many years to master. 

Many years ago I asked a real gunsmith how to get into the trade. He said "Hang out your shingle and be prepared to pay for your mistakes." 

[TGO David]

As I understand it, the ATF more or less considers it to be when you start doing the work for other people AND they are leaving their guns in your possession while they are absent.  Whether it's fitting and installing parts or refinishing the serialized component of the gun itself, that's when an FFL is required and that's when you are on their books as a gunsmith.

 

[crc4]

Don't forget liability insurance. If you're working on firearms for profit (not counting a six-pack or pizza someone gives you) you're going to need liability insurance, commercial insurance, fire and theft insurance, etc. That can easily eat up any profits you may receive. 

Add state and local license fees, business permits, building inspections, IRS breathing on you, and all the other government goodies foisted on you.

Remember, there's more to being a gunsmith than all the skills you must possess. There's the business of business. You must be just as skilled in running a business as running a gunsmithing shop. That's where people fail - not at their skills, but having little to no skills at business.

What you might consider is rather than opening a gunsmithing business and all the red tape and scrutiny that entails, buy old guns or broken guns, fix them up, then sell them in the private market. No read tape, no taxes, no business licensing, no FFL - just be quiet about it to avoid Uncle Sam's prying eyes and ears. Do it discreetly. Since guns are sold "AS IS" it becomes the buyer's responsibility, not your liability. But keeping it on the downlow is the key.

There are lots of people doing that now in the underground economy.

Edited December 19, 2022 by crc4

[crc4]

A few more things if you go that route. Cash only -no checks, credit, credit cards, moonshine, pot, or hookers in exchange.

Meet people at locations other than your premises. Don't have people coming to your house. You don't want the traffic or prying eyes.

Make any meetings short and sweet. Have all the details discussed in emails prior to a meeting. Also, make your price FIRM. Once they agree on the price via email (it's important to have your description complete and brutally honest about the guns) then all that should take place at the meeting is the buyer looks the gun over and money is handed to you. If you get hundred dollar bills make sure you have a testing pen and check them all.

If the buyer likes the gun but makes you a counter offer, take the gun from the buyer, put in back in the trunk, and tell them there's no haggling. The buyer will fork over the money. The entire process from getting out of your car and you getting back in your car shouldn't take more than 5-6 minutes. Get your money and go.

[Handsome Rob]

1 hour ago, crc4 said:

A few more things if you go that route. Cash only -no checks, credit, credit cards, moonshine, pot, or hookers in exchange.

Meet people at locations other than your premises. Don't have people coming to your house. You don't want the traffic or prying eyes.

Make any meetings short and sweet. Have all the details discussed in emails prior to a meeting. Also, make your price FIRM. Once they agree on the price via email (it's important to have your description complete and brutally honest about the guns) then all that should take place at the meeting is the buyer looks the gun over and money is handed to you. If you get hundred dollar bills make sure you have a testing pen and check them all.

If the buyer likes the gun but makes you a counter offer, take the gun from the buyer, put in back in the trunk, and tell them there's no haggling. The buyer will fork over the money. The entire process from getting out of your car and you getting back in your car shouldn't take more than 5-6 minutes. Get your money and go.

'How to be a drug/arms dealer' Chapter 1:

[crc4]

56 minutes ago, Handsome Rob said:

'How to be a drug/arms dealer' Chapter 1:

Business principles are applicable across all businesses. You can learn a lot from the opposition. I learn wherever and whenever I can.

It's exactly the same procedures I use when I'm selling a firearm occasionally to someone I don't know. Do the business and leave.

Edited December 19, 2022 by crc4

[Choatecav]

8 hours ago, crc4 said:

A few more things if you go that route. Cash only -no checks, credit, credit cards, moonshine, pot, or hookers in exchange.

Now wait a minute.  I understand not working for credit, but no "moonshine, pot or hookers?"

Why even get into the business?

[crc4]

Just now, Choatecav said:

Now wait a minute.  I understand not working for credit, but no "moonshine, pot or hookers?"

Why even get into the business?

Unless I know who made the moonshine, grew the pot, and the hooker had a blood test and visual inspection for creepy-crawlies in the last three minutes, the answer must, sadly, be no.

[Choatecav]

2 minutes ago, crc4 said:

Unless I know who made the moonshine, grew the pot, and the hooker had a blood test and visual inspection for creepy-crawlies in the last three minutes, the answer must, sadly, be no.

Well shoot............kinda takes the excitement outta the whole deal.

[crc4]

Just now, Choatecav said:

Well shoot............kinda takes the excitement outta the whole deal.

Penicillin for hepatitis, antibiotics for the clap, and a bad case of crabs takes the excitement out of the excitement.

[Grayfox54]

9 hours ago, TGO David said:

As I understand it, the ATF more or less considers it to be when you start doing the work for other people AND they are leaving their guns in your possession while they are absent.

Over the years I have repaired a number of firearms for friends, relatives, co-workers, etc. I make it a point to NEVER charge for my labor. I ask only to be reimbursed for what I spend on parts and materials. I do this as a hobby and because I enjoy it. I don't want to give ATF any grounds to suggest I do this for profit and thus illegally. 

However, trading for moonshine, pot, or hookers just might be workable. 

[Ronald_55]

49 minutes ago, crc4 said:

Penicillin for hepatitis, antibiotics for the clap, and a bad case of crabs takes the excitement out of the excitement.

You are trading in the WRONG neighborhoods. lol

[mills213]

14 hours ago, TGO David said:

As I understand it, the ATF more or less considers it to be when you start doing the work for other people AND they are leaving their guns in your possession while they are absent.  Whether it's fitting and installing parts or refinishing the serialized component of the gun itself, that's when an FFL is required and that's when you are on their books as a gunsmith.

 

Thanks for the info glad to see you other than classifieds great site Sir 

[mills213]

12 hours ago, crc4 said:

Business principles are applicable across all businesses. You can learn a lot from the opposition. I learn wherever and whenever I can.

It's exactly the same procedures I use when I'm selling a firearm occasionally to someone I don't know. Do the business and leave.

I appreciate the advice very well thought out and excellent info thanks crc4

[mills213]

5 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Over the years I have repaired a number of firearms for friends, relatives, co-workers, etc. I make it a point to NEVER charge for my labor. I ask only to be reimbursed for what I spend on parts and materials. I do this as a hobby and because I enjoy it. I don't want to give ATF any grounds to suggest I do this for profit and thus illegally. 

However, trading for moonshine, pot, or hookers just might be workable. 

Thanks for chiming in great advice that's about where I am at now I'll just keep doing what I'm doing 

[mills213]

Thanks to all such great info and that was hilarious Handsome Rob I would never even touch a 100 year old firearm let alone take a screwdriver or wrench to one.  It is great to have this wealth of knowledge at my fingertips truly invaluable.

[ken_mays]

Learn how to remove tiny broken screws without destroying the surrounding surfaces

[Sleep profit]

Chapter 4      Likely places to find springs that have flown out of your gun.in your garage should be included in gunsmith course. LOL 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Sleep profit

[crc4]

57 minutes ago, Sleep profit said:

Chapter 4      Likely places to find springs that have flown out of your gun.in your garage should be included in gunsmith course. LOL 

I attached a large magnet to a broom handle to run over the carpet in my gunsmithing room. I look like a minesweeper in Normandy.

But I do find the springs.

[Snaveba]

I usually just sit really still and try to hear where they land.