What Most People Who Carry Fail to Realize

[chances R]

5 hours ago, Sunfish said:

,,,,  TN Law now prevents civil action.....

I believe this is only true if it was adjudicated and does not apply if simply the DA decides not to prosecute, or the Grand Jury decides no true bill.

[Sunfish]

I thought we were talking about law abiding citizens

[chances R]

1 hour ago, Sunfish said:

I thought we were talking about law abiding citizens

I am....who do you think decides if your actions are legal?

[crc4]

The fact you're a law abiding citizen has nothing to do with the inevitable investigation. Even if you killed a man raping your child in their bedroom, there will be an investigation. Most likely, even if the DA doesn't want to prosecute because it was a justified shooting, he'll take it to the Grand Jury. That's in a county where the DA is friendly to gun owners. Forget about a liberal/progressive DA as then you'll be arrested, made to make a major bond, probably spend several night in jail, then see a judge to set bond. That's just the beginnings of your woes.

Even if the Grand Jury votes a 'no true' bill,  in some jurisdictions that doesn't stop the dead person's family from hiring their own prosecutor.

The legal fees are paid by you. The expert witnesses are paid by you. Paper work is paid by you. You'll pay even if you're not convicted.

That's just the criminal action. It's worse for civil suits. That's what happens to law-abiding citizens who were fully justified.

Is it fair? Fair doesn't count. Reality does. And that's the reality of what happens.

Edited December 16, 2022 by crc4

[Sunfish]

Yes, they can charge you. If they knowingly do this to someone who was defending themselves, they will be committing political suicide. Civil suits without a criminal conviction will not attract a good grade of ambulance chaser.    

[crc4]

40 minutes ago, Sunfish said:

Yes, they can charge you. If they knowingly do this to someone who was defending themselves, they will be committing political suicide. Civil suits without a criminal conviction will not attract a good grade of ambulance chaser.    

I respectfully disagree. It depends on where you do the shooting. In some locations, not prosecuting  a self-defense shooting will be committing political suicide. Look at Rittenhouse. Though the DA was wrong and lost, he was expected by the progressives to do exactly what he did.

 

Remember, you can still be charged and arrested but not prosecuted. It may take months or years for a criminal trial to take place or it may be dropped. You're still on the hook for the legal expenses incurred even if all charges are dropped.

Civil suits are  easier for lawyers, not more difficult. They get a big payout it they win through settlement or trial. Juries that wouldn't convict in a criminal trial feel sympathy for the shooting 'victim' and  look for excuses to award damages. It takes in many ways a much better civil lawyer than a defense lawyer to protect the  SD shooter from a civil judgement. Again, there's hefty legal fees to pay even if you win your civil trial.

That's why many SD shooters win at stopping the threat but face financial ruin even when the shooting was pronounced 'justified.'

 

[chances R]

1 hour ago, Sunfish said:

Yes, they can charge you. If they knowingly do this to someone who was defending themselves, they will be committing political suicide. Civil suits without a criminal conviction will not attract a good grade of ambulance chaser.    

Tell that to OJ.

[Sunfish]

Getting away with murder and defending yourself are two very different things. California used to ask for the death penalty when more than one person was killed. When the Browns didn't get that they settled for cash that was a little slow to arrive due to a delay in Nevada    

[crc4]

1 hour ago, Sunfish said:

Getting away with murder and defending yourself are two very different things. California used to ask for the death penalty when more than one person was killed. When the Browns didn't get that they settled for cash that was a little slow to arrive due to a delay in Nevada    

I believe he was referring to the civil suit that OJ lost and the Browns won after OJ was acquitted of the murders. That's what I was referring to that even if found not guilty you can still be civilly sued and found liable in many jurisdictions.

Self-defense shooters must have 'clean hands' to be justified. That's why studying SD cases, laws, and the SD shooter's behaviors are critical.

Unfortunately, few people who carry do and become victims of the trap they set for themselves after a SD incident.

Edited December 17, 2022 by crc4

[JustEd]

Two suggestions:

1- Take a actual in person hands on armed defense course in the State of Tennessee

2- Get carry insurance (hope that doesn't get me  banned). 

    Yes, it can cost you 15-20 bucks a month.  What do attorneys charge an hour? 

    I have used both "Second Call" and "USCCA", both are good.  USCCA costs a lot more, ime,  There are others out there, but those are the two I have used. 

    USCCA has a regular magazine they send you which includes articles on what to do before, during and after an armed encounter.

    Both "Second Call" and "USCCA" gave me a card to carry imprinted with what to say to police after an incident  Just in case I forget under stress.

   just fyi, I understand 99% of the people who read this will take neither suggestion.  But at least the info is out there.

 

 

[chances R]

As said before, get Andrew Branca's book, The Law of Self Defense.  Also, the state ECP course should give you a basic guidance on using deadly force in self defense.

[lock n' load]

I just ordered myself a copy of Andrew's book. Looking forward to reading it. I took the 8 hour HCP course 12 years ago and learned some good info on some of the basic self defense laws in TN. That info only scratches the surface though. It is up the the HCP holder to expand their knowledge on what is legal and what isn't.  The old adage, "Ignorance is no excuse" holds very true in self defense. This is especially true if one plans to carry in other states. What might be legal in TN could be illegal in another state.

[DHF]

13 minutes ago, lock n' load said:

I just ordered myself a copy of Andrew's book. Looking forward to reading it. I took the 8 hour HCP course 12 years ago and learned some good info on some of the basic self defense laws in TN. That info only scratches the surface though. It is up the the HCP holder to expand their knowledge on what is legal and what isn't.  The old adage, "Ignorance is no excuse" holds very true in self defense. This is especially true if one plans to carry in other states. What might be legal in TN could be illegal in another state.

Andrew has the online version of the course with the Tennessee state supplement for $99 on his website (DVD options available as well).  Well worth the money and I would classify it as a requirement.  It isn't just about carrying a handgun but just walking around in this messed up world.  Self-defense law applies to any means you employ to defend yourself including open hand.

[crc4]

1 hour ago, DHF said:

Self-defense law applies to any means you employ to defend yourself including open hand.

Exactly. If you do get legal 'protection' make sure the policy also includes other means of self-defense besides firearms. Some don't. So if your pistol ran out of ammo and you dropped it to pickup a 2x4, you're not covered.

[lock n' load]

I got my copy of "The Law of Self Defense" by Andrew Branca last week and it has been a very eye-opening read on the laws of self defense. It also dicusses how the legal system works (it isn't meant to work in your favor if you go to trial). As a bonus, it also includes appendices at the back of the book regarding the laws of self defense for all 50 states. I am about 3/4 of the way through and HIGHLY recommend it. I will also be getting Massad Ayoob's book, "Deadly Force" to complement Andrew's book. Knowledge is power and can help keep your butt out of prison if you know and follow the rules.

Edited December 27, 2022 by lock n' load

[crc4]

4 minutes ago, lock n' load said:

I got my copy of "The Law of Self Defense" by Andrew Branca last week and it has been a very eye-opening read on the laws of self defense. It also dicusses how the legal system works (it isn't meant to work in your favor if you go to trial). As a bonus, it also includes appendices at the back of the book regarding the laws of self defense for all 50 states. I am about 3/4 of the way through and HIGHLY recommend it. I will also be getting Massad Ayoob's book, "Deadly Force" to complement Andrew's book. Knowledge is power and can help keep your butt out of prison if you know and follow the rules.

Congratulations. You now know more about the laws of self-defense that at least 85% of gun owners know. Let us know if you like Ayoob's book.

[lock n' load]

My HCP class gave some good info on self defense but nothing nearly as in-depth as Andrew's book. As DHF and crc4 stated earlier as well as this book, the method used to defend one's self is mostly irrelevant. Self defense can involve anything from a gun to bare hands.

[lock n' load]

36 minutes ago, crc4 said:

Congratulations. You now know more about the laws of self-defense that at least 85% of gun owners know. Let us know if you like Ayoob's book.

Right now, Andrew is offering a free book on his website (just pay for shipping). 

https://get.lawofselfdefense.com/v1-full-freebook-lp/b.html

[crc4]

14 minutes ago, lock n' load said:

Right now, Andrew is offering a free book on his website (just pay for shipping). 

https://get.lawofselfdefense.com/v1-full-freebook-lp/b.html

Thanks for the link. I ordered a copy to give someone.

[crc4]

Today, Dec. 27, Attorney Branca is having a web seminar (free). 

Here's the link. Andrew Branca - "Hard to Convict" Web Seminar

[lansa_coder]

If you don’t use your weapon unless you are defending your life, you won’t have the time to analyze whether you are making the right decision or not.   Not sayin to not learn the law...  just my humble opinion.  

[crc4]

8 hours ago, lansa_coder said:

If you don’t use your weapon unless you are defending your life, you won’t have the time to analyze whether you are making the right decision or not.   Not sayin to not learn the law...  just my humble opinion.  

I disagree. Knowing the conditions that meet justification for a self-defense shooting before it happens helps you make the right decision. Not knowing can wind you up in jail, prison, broke, and without a viable future.

The good news is those conditions that will make your shooting justified and easy to defend in court are not difficult to understand and apply. Like learning to shoot a firearm effectively takes practice, so too does learning and applying those justifiable conditions to your use of deadly force.

Once you learn them, you can practice them on real world situations by seeing how and what others have done and you can see whether or not their shootings were justified.

While self defense laws can and do vary across the states, the basic conditions remain the same for all of them. It's not necessary to learn the Tennessee law, then the Georgia law, then the North Carolina law. The same conditions apply to all of them.

It's like having a car. Would you wait to learn how to drive until you're behind the wheel heading to Home Depot?

Same with self defense.

 

 

[Alleycat72]

8 hours ago, crc4 said:

I disagree. Knowing the conditions that meet justification for a self-defense shooting before it happens helps you make the right decision. Not knowing can wind you up in jail, prison, broke, and without a viable future.

The good news is those conditions that will make your shooting justified and easy to defend in court are not difficult to understand and apply. Like learning to shoot a firearm effectively takes practice, so too does learning and applying those justifiable conditions to your use of deadly force.

Once you learn them, you can practice them on real world situations by seeing how and what others have done and you can see whether or not their shootings were justified.

While self defense laws can and do vary across the states, the basic conditions remain the same for all of them. It's not necessary to learn the Tennessee law, then the Georgia law, then the North Carolina law. The same conditions apply to all of them.

It's like having a car. Would you wait to learn how to drive until you're behind the wheel heading to Home Depot?

Same with self defense.

 

 

Really curious how many times you've had to use lethal force to protect yourself. Is all of this from classes?

[crc4]

2 hours ago, Alleycat72 said:

Really curious how many times you've had to use lethal force to protect yourself. Is all of this from classes?

None so far.  But I did find it necessary to show my gun many times in law enforcement and twice as a citizen to avoid being robbed. I did investigate SD shootings as a detective, took evidence to the DA and Grand Jury, and testified in trials

 

I also learned that most (the majority) of law enforcement officers know almost zero about the legal conditions and ramifications of SD events and their advice is rarely correct. I have no reason to believe that knowledge has improved with the majority of police today. Most lawyers have about the same level of knowledge. It takes a special lawyer who does as it's not in the wheelhouse of criminal defense lawyers.

My knowledge of the legal ramifications of self-defense are from my studies. It's easy to find that knowledge. All you need to do is want to learn it.

Where did you learn about it?

Edited December 29, 2022 by crc4

[Alleycat72]

14 hours ago, crc4 said:

None so far.  But I did find it necessary to show my gun many times in law enforcement and twice as a citizen to avoid being robbed. I did investigate SD shootings as a detective, took evidence to the DA and Grand Jury, and testified in trials

 

I also learned that most (the majority) of law enforcement officers know almost zero about the legal conditions and ramifications of SD events and their advice is rarely correct. I have no reason to believe that knowledge has improved with the majority of police today. Most lawyers have about the same level of knowledge. It takes a special lawyer who does as it's not in the wheelhouse of criminal defense lawyers.

My knowledge of the legal ramifications of self-defense are from my studies. It's easy to find that knowledge. All you need to do is want to learn it.

Where did you learn about it?

I learned about it with handcuffs on next to a man that tried to kill me. That's the only time I was thinking about the law and how it affected me. No charges filed against me.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Alleycat72