Metro Nashville Licence Plate Readers

[Will]

Our Lame City Council just approved a six month trial over a sea of protesters. I am not for  Big Brother but this yes. Neighbor MT Juliet is bringing them in wholesale and many times before next crime,even Belle Mead. We lost a clerk at a local gas station that everybody knew in Hermitage that may have been prevented if they had their act together. I hope his family spoke tonight.

[Grayfox54]

Last I heard license plate readers were having a hard time with the new plates that came out this year. It seems the the white letters on the blue background is very hard for them to pick up well. There has even been talk of changing the plate design again. 

[hipower]

I've heard rumblings of that as well. Personally I don't care for the color format either. I find it difficult to read and I don't even have those fancy lenses the readers have.

[Sunfish]

These could help with felony arrests, but Metro will probably turn it into a traffic cash cow

[Alleycat72]

"Can't be abused" LOL

[bubbadavis]

I've yet to hear of the plate readers being misused in Mt Juliet. They have resulted in several stolen vehicle recoveries and felony arrests. 

In no way does this mean metro is going to follow the same operating principles. Technology like this is ripe for abuse - if the department allows it.

[10-Ring]

I have little respect for the Mt. Juliet police department.  That said, when they began talk of their license plate readers I was adamantly against the idea for reasons related to privacy, and fear that the system would be used by that department in a way in which it wasn't intended.  Almost 3 years later I will admit that I was wrong.  It seems that nearly a day can not pass without a stolen car being recovered.  Not surprisingly, it seems that the majority of the stolen cars are driven by wanted felons, usually from Davidson County.  (The local thugs know better than to run stolen plates in Mt. Juliet.) I saw these stats posted this morning so I thought that I would pass them along.  I hear a lot of bad things from credible people about the way that the Mt. Juliet Police Department is run, but I haven't heard a single thing in 3 years about these cameras being used inappropriately. 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by 10-Ring

[10-Ring]

Double tap 

Edited December 7, 2022 by 10-Ring

[10-Ring]

Triple tap 

Edited December 7, 2022 by 10-Ring

[bubbadavis]

45 minutes ago, 10-Ring said:

I have little respect for the Mt. Juliet police department.  That said, when they began talk of their license plate readers I was adamantly against the idea for reasons related to privacy, and fear that the system would be used by that department in a way in which it wasn't intended.  Almost 3 years later I will admit that I was wrong.  It seems that nearly a day can not pass without a stolen car being recovered.  Not surprisingly, it seems that the majority of the stolen cars are driven by wanted felons, usually from Davidson County.  (The local thugs know better than to run stolen plates in Mt. Juliet.) I saw these stats posted this morning so I thought that I would pass them along.  I hear a lot of bad things from credible people about the way that the Mt. Juliet Police Department is run, but I haven't heard a single thing in 3 years about these cameras being used inappropriately. 

 

This is always my fear when I hear of technology such as license plate readers. It reminds me of the 'red light cameras' several years ago. Nothing wrong with the technology until cities started 'adjusting' the yellow light timing to create more revenue.

The technology isn't the problem; its how people in power misuse it.

[gregintenn]

Assuming they aren’t misused today doesn’t prevent them from being misused in the future. Once that camel gets his nose under the tent, the rest of him will surely follow.

[Capbyrd]

In Memphis they just send an alert that a stolen tag passed the area.   They don’t do anything more than that.  Not saying they won’t eventually, but right now, it’s all it does.  An officer still needs to be in the area to have a hope of catching anybody. 

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, Capbyrd said:

In Memphis they just send an alert that a stolen tag passed the area.   They don’t do anything more than that.  Not saying they won’t eventually, but right now, it’s all it does.  An officer still needs to be in the area to have a hope of catching anybody. 

There is a camera at 64/Germantown that will send you some hate mail every time you run the red light.  Ask my wife how she knows

[crc4]

Maybe have a camera with a Barrett .50 attached that sends more than a post card for habitual traffic offenders, fleeing felons, and DUIs.

Edited December 14, 2022 by crc4

[Alleycat72]

Should be a law. Mandatory 10 years in prison  for anyone misusing data from cameras or readers. If you can't abuse the technology, all LEOs and politicians should be on-board. 

[OldIronFan]

It is pretty simple really. They can be extremely effective and useful tools. Just manage them appropriately like you should any technology tool. Have a well established data management plan that includes time and event based triggers for automatic purging of data and strong cyber security protocols. Much like a good dash cam system, data is retained for a set time period and then overwritten or erased unless a trigger occurs. If a stolen or otherwise flagged plate is picked up by the system it gets retained for for review but all other data is purged after an appropriate time (24 hours, 5 days, monthly, whatever is judged as appropriate). Also put in place an independent audit and review of the use and management of the system for outside oversight, possibly civilian.  

As mentioned above by others you need to have a LEO to respond to the data provided so there is a built in human review process, the reader can't act on its own after all. You would need to have appropriate penalties in place for abuses. Say a LEO flags the plate of their spouse or the person they think is having an affair with their spouse so they can track them. That is an obvious misuse and should result in criminal charges and the loss of their job. 

There is no expectation of privacy, in my opinion, with a license plate. It is on display for the world to see by its very nature. My travels in public may have a bit more expectation of privacy but still not much of one. If someone wants to follow me going down I-24 I don't have much recourse to stop them. If my plate is read at a time and place where a crime has occurred I do not see an issue with the police reviewing that data and contacting me with a question or to make a statement. I may or may not have information that could help them solve the crime but I do not see it as a violation of privacy for them to have that location information about me if the data was retained due to the occurrence of a crime. 

[gregintenn]

29 minutes ago, OldIronFan said:

It is pretty simple really. They can be extremely effective and useful tools. Just manage them appropriately like you should any technology tool. Have a well established data management plan that includes time and event based triggers for automatic purging of data and strong cyber security protocols. Much like a good dash cam system, data is retained for a set time period and then overwritten or erased unless a trigger occurs. If a stolen or otherwise flagged plate is picked up by the system it gets retained for for review but all other data is purged after an appropriate time (24 hours, 5 days, monthly, whatever is judged as appropriate). Also put in place an independent audit and review of the use and management of the system for outside oversight, possibly civilian.  

As mentioned above by others you need to have a LEO to respond to the data provided so there is a built in human review process, the reader can't act on its own after all. You would need to have appropriate penalties in place for abuses. Say a LEO flags the plate of their spouse or the person they think is having an affair with their spouse so they can track them. That is an obvious misuse and should result in criminal charges and the loss of their job. 

There is no expectation of privacy, in my opinion, with a license plate. It is on display for the world to see by its very nature. My travels in public may have a bit more expectation of privacy but still not much of one. If someone wants to follow me going down I-24 I don't have much recourse to stop them. If my plate is read at a time and place where a crime has occurred I do not see an issue with the police reviewing that data and contacting me with a question or to make a statement. I may or may not have information that could help them solve the crime but I do not see it as a violation of privacy for them to have that location information about me if the data was retained due to the occurrence of a crime. 

I wish I could have as high an opinion of my fellow man as you do.

[Capbyrd]

10 hours ago, deerslayer said:

There is a camera at 64/Germantown that will send you some hate mail every time you run the red light.  Ask my wife how she knows

Those aren’t the LPR cameras.  The LPR cameras are called Flock and they are dome shaped.   The speed cameras and red light cameras are a completely separate system. 

[Capbyrd]

7 hours ago, OldIronFan said:

Say a LEO flags the plate of their spouse or the person they think is having an affair with their spouse so they can track them. That is an obvious misuse and should result in criminal charges and the loss of their job. 

I don’t know about every jurisdiction but in Memphis this isn’t really possible without losing the job and charges.  A plate has to be in the NCIC system for the plate reader to flag it.  The only way to get it into NCIC is to have some type of report against it, usually stolen. 

[Alleycat72]

22 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

I don’t know about every jurisdiction but in Memphis this isn’t really possible without losing the job and charges.  A plate has to be in the NCIC system for the plate reader to flag it.  The only way to get it into NCIC is to have some type of report against it, usually stolen. 

I work with a system. There is a lot of things you can't do. It's impossible. Absolutely no way. What they don't expect is when I change the parameters of the question.  You can't change logs for example. I show them the very colorful language in the logs and then ask them how a very expensive piece of equipment has an opinion on Joe Biden. I'm a very difficult person to deal with. LOL

I've also used equipment from one manufacturer to control equipment from a different manufacturer. I've had the engineers standing there telling me it can't be done as I'm demonstrating how it works. He was stunned. Looked at me and said that's impossible. 

Someone programmed it to purge data.

They can program in not to purge data, or change it to purge once a decade. 

Someone told it a case has to be attached to the plate. 

That sounds easy to get around.  Tell it that that rule is no longer valid. Attach your target plate to a random case then remove it. Put the thing in test mode 

I can promise you that some people already know how to get around it. 

I've buddied up to engineers and programmers just enough for them to slip up and tell me something they shouldn't. LOL. At that point it's "let the games begin". There's been no telling how many software updates and equipment redesigns I've caused. 

They may be the best thing out there. They may save lives. They will solve crimes. Just don't tell they can't be abused. 

People will find a way. 

By the way, it's part of my job to expose the weaknesses of a widget. They fix anything I can find. Nothing in malicious, but I do have fun with it, and I hope it's saved people from harm. None of this is in an area that can violate someone's rights either. 

 

[Capbyrd]

5 hours ago, Alleycat72 said:

I work with a system. There is a lot of things you can't do. It's impossible. Absolutely no way. What they don't expect is when I change the parameters of the question.  You can't change logs for example. I show them the very colorful language in the logs and then ask them how a very expensive piece of equipment has an opinion on Joe Biden. I'm a very difficult person to deal with. LOL

I've also used equipment from one manufacturer to control equipment from a different manufacturer. I've had the engineers standing there telling me it can't be done as I'm demonstrating how it works. He was stunned. Looked at me and said that's impossible. 

Someone programmed it to purge data.

They can program in not to purge data, or change it to purge once a decade. 

Someone told it a case has to be attached to the plate. 

That sounds easy to get around.  Tell it that that rule is no longer valid. Attach your target plate to a random case then remove it. Put the thing in test mode 

I can promise you that some people already know how to get around it. 

I've buddied up to engineers and programmers just enough for them to slip up and tell me something they shouldn't. LOL. At that point it's "let the games begin". There's been no telling how many software updates and equipment redesigns I've caused. 

They may be the best thing out there. They may save lives. They will solve crimes. Just don't tell they can't be abused. 

People will find a way. 

By the way, it's part of my job to expose the weaknesses of a widget. They fix anything I can find. Nothing in malicious, but I do have fun with it, and I hope it's saved people from harm. None of this is in an area that can violate someone's rights either. 

 

I never once said that the system was infallible.  I only pointed out how it’s currently being used.  I don’t know the system and haven’t seen the programs it runs or anything.  I only know how those calls are going out and if an officer wanted to use it maliciously, it would be difficult to fake one.  They would have to file a report, send it to dispatch who is then going to verify the report with internal and external sources before they send officers on the call.   NCIC stuff is heavily regulated and I know the person that runs it takes her job very seriously.  
 

 

again, none of that prevents misuse.  And I’m not a camera supporter.  I’m pretty against the nanny state.  I’m only commenting on how something is currently used and the only opinion I’ve offered until this point was about one individual’s character.  

Edited December 15, 2022 by Capbyrd

[RED333]

IIRC SCOTUS ruled that we do not have privacy in public. You can video any one out in public and these is not a lot that can be done to stop you.

I am against the nanny state as well!

I do believe the readers will be abused, it is just human nature.

POWER CORRUPTS!

[deerslayer]

13 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

Those aren’t the LPR cameras.  The LPR cameras are called Flock and they are dome shaped.   The speed cameras and red light cameras are a completely separate system. 

I know the two are unrelated, but she isn’t convinced.