P80 selling rules or advice

[JohnSutton1980]

Ok fellers. I’m basically a newborn when it comes to the p80/80% stuff. I wanted to buy one from a trusted source. The only thing that has me leery is he has never installed a serial number. I know I could put one on there and claim to have made it myself but does anyone know the correct way to purchase a used p80 or an 80% build? Any ideas or advice? I am not asking for legal advice just opinions. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by JohnSutton1980

[Darrell]

Check this for yourself, I'm no attorney, but as I understand it a SN is only required if an FFL buys or sells the gun. An individual is NOT allowed to build an 80% frame with the intent to sell it, but it's still legal to sell it, say if the original builder has had it for some length of time and no longer wants it. For an individual selling face to face in Tennessee, no background check is required, no paperwork is required, and therefore the gun need not be serialized.

Most of the suppliers of 80% frames / lowers have information on their websites. 

 

Here's one website that addresses the issue:

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/can-i-sell-or-give-my-homemade-gun-another-person.htm#:~:text=There is no federal regulation,intent of the firearm's maker.

 

Be aware, of course, that rules and laws change pretty rapidly, and there is a lot of push to totally ban homemade firearms. Do your due dilegence! The information on at least one 80% seller's website advises AGAINST ever selling a firearm you build yourself.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Darrell

[Grayfox54]

I'm no expert, but my understanding was that 80% was legal as long as it is owned by the original builder. After that, it gets kinda fuzzy. 

They're also on the Fed's hit list. Could become illegal at any time. I wouldn't buy it. 

[scatman]

As long as your firearm has a unique serial number somewhere on it you will be fine. I.e. barrel or slide. I have a G19 on a p80 lower, with a kineti-tech tactical slide and my original OEM G19 barrel. The only part containing my serial number is my barrel, this has been what's advised to me if I didnt want to file for a number on my 80% lower by my local GD.

Edited October 11, 2022 by scatman

[Il Duce]

[JohnSutton1980]

Yeah like most opinions I have heard so many “options” or he said this, my guys says this. Just wanted to ponder this question to fellow shooters in our great state of Tennessee. Odd that you hear so many different avenues. I would NOT be comfortable with a barrel from another gun with its serial number as the only identifying marks. Seems to me you would have at least 2 guns with the same serial number that way. 
I trust the source so I’m good with the purchase just wanted to check and what others were or are doing with similar situations.
I myself have put together a P80 and really fell in love with it. But my Glock 32 is still my EDC because of comfort. 

[scatman]

34 minutes ago, JohnSutton1980 said:

I would NOT be comfortable with a barrel from another gun with its serial number as the only identifying marks. Seems to me you would have at least 2 guns with the same serial number that way. 

I do not have two complete firearms with the same number. I have overtime replaced my lower frame with a p80 lower, and then I got an aftermarket slide. My original lower frame is damaged beyond repair but still sitting in the safe next to my slide. 

[JohnSutton1980]

Ok now so understand!!! Make sense to me! I was thinking you removed parts from a Glock and put them on a p80 while using the Glock serial number!  That may be legal I have no idea! But I always go by my gut and it seemed no so legit. But now I understand your process!

15 minutes ago, scatman said:

I do not have two complete firearms with the same number. I have overtime replaced my lower frame with a p80 lower, and then I got an aftermarket slide. My original lower frame is damaged beyond repair but still sitting in the safe next to my slide. 

 

[Il Duce]

Let’s clear the air on one thing real quick. The SN on the barrel or slide mean jack all in this case. 
ATF requires any manufacturer to engrave their name and serial into the firearm which, in the case of a P80, is the frame. Same as any handgun. 
 

The fact that barrels, slides, and frames carry a serial number is only based upon tracking of the major components through the manufacturing process and to help in quality control. 

[JohnSutton1980]

And yet ANOTHER opinion. Wow!!! Though throw the context of a manufacturer I completely agree. If a normal everyday person makes his own gun. I’m not so sure it is black and white as some would believe. 

[scatman]

23 minutes ago, Il Duce said:

Let’s clear the air on one thing real quick. The SN on the barrel or slide mean jack all in this case. 
ATF requires any manufacturer to engrave their name and serial into the firearm which, in the case of a P80, is the frame. Same as any handgun. 
 

The fact that barrels, slides, and frames carry a serial number is only based upon tracking of the major components through the manufacturing process and to help in quality control. 

1) I'm not a manufacturer.

2) This is a privately made firearm.

3) The rule still does not prevent an unlicensed individual from making a non serialized PMF for their own use.

If I were to take this as it is now in to a gunsmith for a repair then he would be required to serialize it under the new regulations, but it is not illegal for me to have, even if I didn't have the serial number on my barrel.

Edited October 11, 2022 by scatman

[JohnSutton1980]

If a person makes one or 2 of his own guns, that does not meet the criteria or definition of a manufacturer  “generally”. Which means depends on the attitude of that particular ATF agent.  That is just based off of 10 minutes of “internet research” and NOT real world experience. I have only made 1 80% and it was for my own use.  I strongly believe if you make more than 1 for a profit then it makes sense to be called a manufacturer.

[Darrell]

What really irks me about this conversation is that the rules are, as GreyFox54 put it, "fuzzy". I think that the vast majority of gun owners want to stay 100% within the law, but if the law and rules aren't clear it becomes easy to inadvertently find oneself on the wrong side of the question. The feds know that 80% kits are available and popular, and they would be doing all of us a favor if they'd just clearly and simply state the rules.  And maybe monkeys will fly out their butts, too.

 

[JohnSutton1980]

6 minutes ago, scatman said:

1) I'm not a manufacturer.

2) This is a privately made firearm.

3) The rule still does not prevent an unlicensed individual from making a non serialized PMF for their own use.

If I were to take this as it is now in to a gunsmith for a repair then he would be required to serialize it under the new regulations, but it is not illegal for me to have, even if I didn't have the serial number on my barrel.

I’m a tard typer and you beat me to it! Statements like the one we are replying to is how “truth” becomes muddled. By design perhaps!

[JohnSutton1980]

2 minutes ago, Darrell said:

What really irks me about this conversation is that the rules are, as GreyFox54 put it, "fuzzy". I think that the vast majority of gun owners want to stay 100% within the law, but if the law and rules aren't clear it becomes easy to inadvertently find oneself on the wrong side of the question. The feds know that 80% kits are available and popular, and they would be doing all of us a favor if they'd just clearly and simply state the rules.  And maybe monkeys will fly out their butts, too.

 

That would be way too easy!!!

[gregintenn]

8 hours ago, JohnSutton1980 said:

Ok fellers. I’m basically a newborn when it comes to the p80/80% stuff. I wanted to buy one from a trusted source. The only thing that has me leery is he has never installed a serial number. I know I could put one on there and claim to have made it myself but does anyone know the correct way to purchase a used p80 or an 80% build? Any ideas or advice? I am not asking for legal advice just opinions. 

You hand him the money, he hands you the pistol. That’s it!

[JustEd]

On 10/11/2022 at 9:07 AM, Darrell said:

Check this for yourself, I'm no attorney, but as I understand it a SN is only required if an FFL buys or sells the gun. An individual is NOT allowed to build an 80% frame with the intent to sell it, but it's still legal to sell it, say if the original builder has had it for some length of time and no longer wants it. For an individual selling face to face in Tennessee, no background check is required, no paperwork is required, and therefore the gun need not be serialized.

Most of the suppliers of 80% frames / lowers have information on their websites. 

 

Here's one website that addresses the issue:

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/can-i-sell-or-give-my-homemade-gun-another-person.htm#:~:text=There is no federal regulation,intent of the firearm's maker.

 

Be aware, of course, that rules and laws change pretty rapidly, and there is a lot of push to totally ban homemade firearms. Do your due dilegence! The information on at least one 80% seller's website advises AGAINST ever selling a firearm you build yourself.

 

 

"An individual is NOT allowed to build an 80% frame with the intent to sell it, but it's still legal to sell it, say if the original builder has had it for some length of time and no longer wants it"

Your statement seems to answer the question.  However, If such a firearm were used in a defensive shooting, it would seem to make any a civil lawsuit more complicated to defend in a jury trial.  Could just be my perspective.

 

[DJTC45]

This why I stay away from these types of firearms. I'm not knocking you for having it, but the ATF "Rulings" are so misleading that it's not worth it to me. Just my thoughts on this subject. Good luck in getting it all figured out.

[JohnSutton1980]

3 minutes ago, DJTC45 said:

This why I stay away from these types of firearms. I'm not knocking you for having it, but the ATF "Rulings" are so misleading that it's not worth it to me. Just my thoughts on this subject. Good luck in getting it all figured out.

I thought this same way for a long time about these!! I live by the KISS formula and it had kept me from jails, hospitals and morgues. So far anyway!  I then found a completed serialized version at a shop in Knoxville. I really liked the grip angle on them. The P80 anyway. I then bought a few as I had a ton of spare Glock parts around and figured I would make me a few. I’m perfectly satisfied with how everything turned out. I know the transfer of these are subjective. I thought about buying a trusted buddies p80 but the “legal” info is as clear as muddy water.

[gregintenn]

7 hours ago, JohnSutton1980 said:

I thought this same way for a long time about these!! I live by the KISS formula and it had kept me from jails, hospitals and morgues. So far anyway!  I then found a completed serialized version at a shop in Knoxville. I really liked the grip angle on them. The P80 anyway. I then bought a few as I had a ton of spare Glock parts around and figured I would make me a few. I’m perfectly satisfied with how everything turned out. I know the transfer of these are subjective. I thought about buying a trusted buddies p80 but the “legal” info is as clear as muddy water.

There is NO law against you buying your buddies pistol as long as neither of you are felons and are both residents of Tennessee.

Let’s now pretend some law enforcement agent who is ignorant of current law deciders to give you a hard time over it. How do you suppose he can prove you didn’t build it?

Edited October 14, 2022 by gregintenn

[tazam80]

Some great info here. I had thought it was illegal to sell a homemade gun period.  Lots of grey out there!

[Smith]

41 minutes ago, tazam80 said:

Some great info here. I had thought it was illegal to sell a homemade gun period.  Lots of grey out there!

It's really not that grey. You can sell anything you own. You can't build with the intent to sell (manufacture) without a serial number. 

If the ATF is after you for an 80% build that was in a private sell, you've got a whole world of other problems. The 80% would be the least of your issues.

[gregintenn]

Raise your hand if any law enforcement agent ever asked to check the serial number on your gun.

 

A a side note, I found this quite interesting.

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/judge-guns/2022/10/13/id/1091786/

Edited October 14, 2022 by gregintenn

[JohnSutton1980]

1 hour ago, Smith said:

It's really not that grey. You can sell anything you own. You can't build with the intent to sell (manufacture) without a serial number. 

If the ATF is after you for an 80% build that was in a private sell, you've got a whole world of other problems. The 80% would be the least of your issues.

I agree with your thought. Although a lie to law enforcement about a “gun” is probably frowned upon. The sum I have come to, although may seem ignorant, will be to have the gun serialized and do a true transfer at a FFL. I will find all of the “dumbass” government infringements so I know fact wise I won’t become a criminal whose constitutional right is taken by a 1960s law. To my knowledge that is when the government decided to not allow felons to have guns. In the constitution it did not say”if you have a felony, you can bear arms” but that is my real deal extreme view on the 2nd amendment. I think EVERYONE should be allowed to have a gun. That way no Karen gets too full of him or herself and we all learn to respect each other again.

[Chucktshoes]

57 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Raise your hand if any law enforcement agent ever asked to check the serial number on your gun.

 

A a side note, I found this quite interesting.

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/judge-guns/2022/10/13/id/1091786/

Yup. Bruen continues to pay dividends.