Carrying in a Properly Posted Business

[StephenB]

I do not intentionally carry where properly posted according to TN Code 39-17-1359 even though I completely disagree that signs should carry the force of law and I've written our lawmakers to express my opinion on the matter - no criminal is going to care one second about a sign.  Anyway...

1. Has anyone ever carried past a sign and were caught?
2. Where in the state did it happen (if you're comfortable saying)?
3. Were you prosecuted and had to pay the $500 fine?
4. Since it's a misdemeanor and not a felony, I assume there was no impact on your ability to retain your carry permit?  (just double-checking that I'm not missing something)

Thank you for the discussion.

 

[monkeylizard]

As far as has ever been reported here that I can recall, the only case of anyone being prosecuted for carrying past a sign was around 10 years ago or so in Memphis at a (I think) Kawasaki dealership. The place had been recently robbed, maybe multiple times (10+ years ago . . I don't remember specifics).

Anyway, long story short, the signs were huge and obvious. This predated the current specific signage laws needing the TCA reference. I think maybe the offender was even warned verbally NOT to carry but did it anyway. A pretty blatant thumbing of his nose at the proprietor. Police were called. Charges were filed. I don't recall exactly what the outcome was, or if we ever learned the final outcome, but he probably got to see a judge at some point.

I think at that time, a conviction under 39-17-1359 meant a mandatory suspension of the HCP but that's no longer in 1359.

Edited September 14, 2022 by monkeylizard

[A.J. Holst]

If I've ever mistakenly missed a sign, I've never been caught.

If asked to leave, I'm happy to as I prefer not to enrich anti 2A businesses.

[peejman]

A violation of -1359 is rarely ever the only charge.  It's a pile-on charge for people doing stupid stuff. 

[WillyK]

Looks like the sign didn't work out to well for the Huddle House in Livingston. 

Whoda thought a no firearms sign in Tennessee would be a bad business decision?

[ou812]

I found this in a past post. 

(Memphis TV channel 13 reported some info on the Kawasaki shop incident. I know the man who carried in to the store. Went to Bartlett PD until bail paid. At court received probation and fine. Could not carry until probation ended. Had to reapply for permit. Didn't get weapon returned until after court hearing after probation ended and PD did a TICS check. Lawyer fees $5k, probation a little over 2 years. )

[StephenB]

On 9/13/2022 at 11:00 PM, monkeylizard said:

As far as has ever been reported here that I can recall, the only case of anyone being prosecuted for carrying past a sign was around 10 years ago or so in Memphis at a (I think) Kawasaki dealership. The place had been recently robbed, maybe multiple times (10+ years ago . . I don't remember specifics).

Anyway, long story short, the signs were huge and obvious. This predated the current specific signage laws needing the TCA reference. I think maybe the offender was even warned verbally NOT to carry but did it anyway. A pretty blatant thumbing of his nose at the proprietor. Police were called. Charges were filed. I don't recall exactly what the outcome was, or if we ever learned the final outcome, but he probably got to see a judge at some point.

I think at that time, a conviction under 39-17-1359 meant a mandatory suspension of the HCP but that's no longer in 1359.

Thank you for the information.  I'm actually in that part of the state, but it sounds with the current law the most one can get is a $500 fine and still retain HCP.

[Redarrow6]

I am new to Tn. and find the rules confusing concerning constitutional carry and enhanced carry.

Also, does the law require signage at all entrances to the business?

[StephenB]

9 hours ago, Redarrow6 said:

I am new to Tn. and find the rules confusing concerning constitutional carry and enhanced carry.

Also, does the law require signage at all entrances to the business?

Enhanced carry in TN only gives you a few more privileges than permitless carry including parks (no school events), nature trails, greenways, etc. as defined in TCA 39-17-1311 as well as university employees in TCA 39-17-1309.  I've never seen a "Concealed Firearms by Permit Only" sign but that's mentioned in the law as well.  Here's a good summary document:  https://memphispolice.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Permitless-Carry-Citizen-Guidance-Leaflet-English.pdf

All that being said, I chose to get my Enhanced Handgun Permit for the reciprocity with other states and training (personal thing).

Oh, and yes, signage is required at all entrances. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by StephenB

[m16ty]

When I walk into a place of business, I don't stop and scan the storefront for a posting. If I happen to see a sign I'll take note, but I'm not pausing before I go in to look. 

I know I have walked into a place of business and noticed a posting on the way out that I didn't see on the way in.

At the end of the day, don't do anything stupid while you are in there and there is a 99.9% chance nothing will happen, as long as you are concealed. I've talked to several local officers, the Police Chief, and the Sheriff of my town. We are semi-rural and they have all told me that they aren't looking to cause trouble with people carrying past a properly posted place, as long as the property owner doesn't push too hard. If the property owner demands action, they will have to charge you with something, because it is the law. Even then you may not be convicted, or likely reduced down to something much less severe. All that being said, your mileage may vary, and it all depends on the local attitude of law enforcement, the DA, and the Judges. I would say things like this could have drastic different outcomes when you compare my relatively small town with places like Nashville and Memphis. 

[monkeylizard]

14 hours ago, StephenB said:

Oh, and yes, signage is required at all entrances. 

Maybe a little pedantic, but it's all entrances generally used by the public.

A restaurant can post the front door but not post the kitchen entrance used by employees and still be properly posted by statute. I bring it up in case someone thinks they thought up a loop hole that doesn't exist.

It also doesn't have to be the door. The signage is to restrict access to the area beyond the posting. A restaurant could place a sign at the entrances to their bar area but not the front door. That would make only the bar area off limits.

I've seen the sign on some Waffle House bulletin boards which sit by the restrooms. I guess you can't have a handgun in there, but the rest of the place is OK . . . 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by monkeylizard

[StephenB]

5 hours ago, monkeylizard said:

Maybe a little pedantic, but it's all entrances generally used by the public.

A restaurant can post the front door but not post the kitchen entrance used by employees and still be properly posted by statute. I bring it up in case someone thinks they thought up a loop hole that doesn't exist.

It also doesn't have to be the door. The signage is to restrict access to the area beyond the posting. A restaurant could place a sign at the entrances to their bar area but not the front door. That would make only the bar area off limits.

I've seen the sign on some Waffle House bulletin boards which sit by the restrooms. I guess you can't have a handgun in there, but the rest of the place is OK . . . 

 

Good clarification