Glock knock offs wtf!

[JohnSutton1980]

Ok guys and gals. I’ve been disconnected for a bit on gun stuff. I am a huge glock fan. They are ugly and never quite fit the hand just right but they are almost indestructible, stupid reliable, and IMO the best gun out there. 
I’ve learned they now allow people to make knock off versions of Glocks.  Some even call them clones. My question is why do they seem to be more expensive!! A few I have looked at (shadow systems mainly) have been more expensive than a REAL Glock. I don’t get it. Please help me understand 

[Moped]

I don't think all Glock clones are more expensive than Glocks. Shadow Systems seems to a minority in that regard.  And honestly, I'm really not sure why either.  Can't believe it is any better than a Glock, to be honest, but I have not shot one either.

Stoeger makes the STR9 and 9C and Palmetto State Armory makes the Dagger.  Neither is an exact clone, but I think you can use Dagger slides on Glock frames (but I may be mistaken).  The STR9 and the Dagger are significantly cheaper than their Glock Big Cousins.  The Dagger has a lot of interesting options, with cutaway slides and RDS plates, as well as different rear sight locations.  It seems like PSA has put a ton of thought into the Dagger.  I think we'll be seeing more and more of these on the market, as more people learn about them!

[Chucktshoes]

Most of the clones offer features that you would spend a lot of money to have done to a stock Glock. 
 

Like the Shadow Systems guns (of which I carry one daily) that have features that would cost twice as much as the gun to add to a stock Glock. Some aren’t even compatible with a stock Glock at all, like their mounting system cuts. So if it helps to see where the value is, just remember how much it used to cost to buy a gun and send it off to Agency or Salient to have it worked over Gucci’d up and realize you’re getting that for much less with the out of the box clones. 

[Will]

For the last twenty five years All /Most Pistols are a copy of a Glock with a minor change so they wont be sued.  As the patent ran out on the Glock Gen3 everybody and their brother is now making one.   PSA and other make them now and all parts interchange. The catch is Glock makes most of their small parts and tests them daily for fit and breakage so a small part malfunction is rare with Glock factory parts as most Guns go to Mil/LE and have to be totally reliable. I asked about Glock MOS at the Glockstore and they said they are on backorder because Police/Mil are now going to MOS so they tried to steer me to other makers in stock. I had a Glock rep tell me that he sold good products but why are Americans not able to invent a great firearm anymore,along with medicine,autos and on down the list.

[TGS]

Shadow Systems has interesting offerings but the lack of ambidextrous slide lock makes it a no go for me.  

[TGS]

Oh, and I believe that they had some reliability issues related to the hood design on the CR920.  This has reportedly been corrected.

[JustEd]

Will, pretty well covered it.  Some try to make cheaper versions of the Glock system.  A few try to sell tricked out versions of a standard Glock.  The latter will be higher in cost,

Look at the history of revolvers or bolt action rifles.  Once someone comes out with a design that works, everyone tries to build on that engineering.  Either offering fancier or cheaper products.

it's life.

[Whisper]

On 8/25/2022 at 1:12 PM, Will said:

 I had a Glock rep tell me that he sold good products but why are Americans not able to invent a great firearm anymore,along with medicine,autos and on down the list.

Hmm.  I'm sitting here trying to think of great Austrian medical advances of the past 25 years, and wondering where there's a dealership that sells Austrian cars, and for some reason nothing comes to mind. 

[scatman]

11 hours ago, Whisper said:

Hmm.  I'm sitting here trying to think of great Austrian medical advances of the past 25 years, and wondering where there's a dealership that sells Austrian cars, and for some reason nothing comes to mind. 

Theres only two things I think of when I hear Austria talked about: Arnold and Nikki Lauda

[Will]

15 hours ago, Whisper said:

Hmm.  I'm sitting here trying to think of great Austrian medical advances of the past 25 years, and wondering where there's a dealership that sells Austrian cars, and for some reason nothing comes to mind. 

Austria-Glock         UK-  DNA Fingerprinting            Autos- Ever hear of Japan?        And on down the list.

[Whisper]

Last I checked, the UK and Japan aren't the same as Austria.

My point, perhaps too subtle for you to follow, was that it's ridiculous for an Austrian to claim the US can't make great products anymore.  Many countries, including Austria and the US, have different areas of industrial excellence, and areas where they are less competitive with other nations. Austria, for example, imports most of its food, while the US leads the world in food exports.  Not surprisingly, US agricultural equipment (especially John Deere and Case) also leads the world.  The US is also the global leader in construction and mining equipment (Caterpillar).  Five of the top 10 medical device manufacturers in the world are American.  And while I'm sure the Austrian military is proud of its Glocks, guess which country makes the Huey, Kiowa, and Blackhawk helicopters and the C-130 transport planes used by the Austrian Air Force?

Just because it's popular in some circles to say the US can't make anything nowadays, that doesn't make it true.

Cheers,

Whisper

 

 

[JohnSutton1980]

3 hours ago, Whisper said:

Last I checked, the UK and Japan aren't the same as Austria.

My point, perhaps too subtle for you to follow, was that it's ridiculous for an Austrian to claim the US can't make great products anymore.  Many countries, including Austria and the US, have different areas of industrial excellence, and areas where they are less competitive with other nations. Austria, for example, imports most of its food, while the US leads the world in food exports.  Not surprisingly, US agricultural equipment (especially John Deere and Case) also leads the world.  The US is also the global leader in construction and mining equipment (Caterpillar).  Five of the top 10 medical device manufacturers in the world are American.  And while I'm sure the Austrian military is proud of its Glocks, guess which country makes the Huey, Kiowa, and Blackhawk helicopters and the C-130 transport planes used by the Austrian Air Force?

Just because it's popular in some circles to say the US can't make anything nowadays, that doesn't make it true.

Cheers,

Whisper

 

 

I agree! Mostly anyway. Except for the medical. I firmly believe the ONLY reason of the medical device/care companies choose the US as home or become venders to us companies is because they become millionaires here in the us instead of a cog in the wheel, part of the government, or a government subsidy in there own country. Because in the good old USA, money matters more than healthcare. Perhaps that’s a streak of socialist in my conservative outlook! I don’t think people (all people) shouldn’t have to choose between rent, food, or medicine/treatments)  again to be honest I’ve been called both a liberal republican as well as a conservative democrat. 

[Snaveba]

2 minutes ago, JohnSutton1980 said:

  again to be honest I’ve been called both a liberal republican as well as a conservative democrat. 

I like the term "Uber-Moderate"

[Snaveba]

Or maybe "Radical-Moderate"

[JohnSutton1980]

1 hour ago, Snaveba said:

Or maybe "Radical-Moderate"

I am liking the term radical!! Especially since my own beliefs are aligned with most of the country. Not withstanding the loudest group on the right as well as the loudest group on the left.  MOST of America just wants to provide for there families and be left alone. With little as oversight as possible. Unless of course they show to skirt those boundaries and began to adversely affect others whom are trying to find their pursuit of liberty as well. 

[eRay]

I have found guns to be a lot like movies. The sequels are usually not as good as the originals.

[Chucktshoes]

3 hours ago, Eray said:

I have found guns to be a lot like movies. The sequels are usually not as good as the originals.

But occasionally you get a Top Gun Maverick. 

[Danger Rane]

I’m transitioning from factory Glocks to the Shadow Systems offerings, which I have found to be superior “clones” thus far. In my opinion Glock is slacking when compared to keeping up with the features of its competitors. The only think they have done to the slide in the last 30 years is some shallow front serrations and a mediocre MOS cut. I’m always carried Glocks, and for what I’ve spent to make them comparable to a shadow systems pistol would cost almost double the MSRP on a shadow systems. 

[deerslayer]

2 hours ago, Danger Rane said:

I’m transitioning from factory Glocks to the Shadow Systems offerings, which I have found to be superior “clones” thus far. In my opinion Glock is slacking when compared to keeping up with the features of its competitors. The only think they have done to the slide in the last 30 years is some shallow front serrations and a mediocre MOS cut. I’m always carried Glocks, and for what I’ve spent to make them comparable to a shadow systems pistol would cost almost double the MSRP on a shadow systems. 

What's wrong with the MOS cut?  Their plate sucks but is easily fixed with a C&H Precision plate.  Their triggers are easily improved for $25 or $30.  I admit I'm not that familiar with Shadow Systems guns, but what do they offer as a useful improvement?  Mainly all I care about are competition gamer guns and carry guns, but it seems that Shadow is popular among those who like to Gucci-fy their guns or make them look like something from John Wick.  I've never understood why they're worth the extra money.  

[scatman]

52 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

What's wrong with the MOS cut?  Their plate sucks but is easily fixed with a C&H Precision plate.  Their triggers are easily improved for $25 or $30.  I admit I'm not that familiar with Shadow Systems guns, but what do they offer as a useful improvement?  Mainly all I care about are competition gamer guns and carry guns, but it seems that Shadow is popular among those who like to Gucci-fy their guns or make them look like something from John Wick.  I've never understood why they're worth the extra money.  

Shadow Systems' offer improved ergonomics, as well as tighter tolerances. They're high end combat/duty pistols vs the high end flashy Zev Techs. Like someone stated before, most of these pistols come with upgrades you'd spend as much as you did on your OEM Glock, just to put them on that Glock, why go through the trouble when you could buy a pistol that has everything you'd end up installing, and probably saving a little bit in doing so? 

[Chucktshoes]

52 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

What's wrong with the MOS cut?  Their plate sucks but is easily fixed with a C&H Precision plate.  Their triggers are easily improved for $25 or $30.  I admit I'm not that familiar with Shadow Systems guns, but what do they offer as a useful improvement?  Mainly all I care about are competition gamer guns and carry guns, but it seems that Shadow is popular among those who like to Gucci-fy their guns or make them look like something from John Wick.  I've never understood why they're worth the extra money.  

The Shadow Systems optics cut does not require the use of plates. It allows for direct mounting of different optics using different footprints. The elimination of plates affords a couple of advantages.
 

One, it eliminates a failure point. As you mentioned, the MOS plates suck. Even the C&H plates have reports (though far fewer) of issues. 
 

Two, by the optic sitting lower in the slide, it means you don’t have to use skyscraper high suppressor height iron sights. The irons on the SS guns are just the tiniest smidge higher than standard irons. 
 

There are also a lot of other small features that may be more subjective in their benefit for the individual shooter. Things like undercut trigger guard, (better) grip texture/shape/angle, trigger, etc. 

 

[JohnSutton1980]

7 hours ago, deerslayer said:

What's wrong with the MOS cut?  Their plate sucks but is easily fixed with a C&H Precision plate.  Their triggers are easily improved for $25 or $30.  I admit I'm not that familiar with Shadow Systems guns, but what do they offer as a useful improvement?  Mainly all I care about are competition gamer guns and carry guns, but it seems that Shadow is popular among those who like to Gucci-fy their guns or make them look like something from John Wick.  I've never understood why they're worth the extra money.  

I was thinking along the same lines. Maybe the Gucci Glock guys save a few bucks with them. 
The few shadow systems glock-a-likes I have seen do look like the “movie” guns. 
maybe it is just another “option” for gun buyers. Maybe my own opinion is just that companies are replicating instead of innovating. I can’t buy a new Chevy truck and put new wheels on it and call it “John Sutton Truck Company”  to each his own I guess. 

[TGO David]

This thread is weird.

[deerslayer]

12 hours ago, scatman said:

Shadow Systems' offer improved ergonomics, as well as tighter tolerances. They're high end combat/duty pistols vs the high end flashy Zev Techs. Like someone stated before, most of these pistols come with upgrades you'd spend as much as you did on your OEM Glock, just to put them on that Glock, why go through the trouble when you could buy a pistol that has everything you'd end up installing, and probably saving a little bit in doing so? 

Ergonomics are purely subjective (some actually prefer the Glock grip angle) and tighter tolerances on a polymer frame gun sounds like more marketing gimmicks.  What specific upgrades will save a buyer money?  

[deerslayer]

12 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

The Shadow Systems optics cut does not require the use of plates. It allows for direct mounting of different optics using different footprints. The elimination of plates affords a couple of advantages.
 

One, it eliminates a failure point. As you mentioned, the MOS plates suck. Even the C&H plates have reports (though far fewer) of issues. 
 

Two, by the optic sitting lower in the slide, it means you don’t have to use skyscraper high suppressor height iron sights. The irons on the SS guns are just the tiniest smidge higher than standard irons. 
 

There are also a lot of other small features that may be more subjective in their benefit for the individual shooter. Things like undercut trigger guard, (better) grip texture/shape/angle, trigger, etc. 

 

Again, I’m not well versed on SS.  How do you mount different footprints without plates?  Do they offer multiple slides pre-cut for different optics?  I’m aware of the benefits and disadvantages of miiled vs plate (one less failure point/lower mounting vs being married to a certain footprint).  I have both.  Milling a slide is not particularly expensive; the last time I looked into it, it was going to cost me around $150 for a G17, but I would save $50 or so by not needing an MOS gun.  
 

Sending a Glock to Taran Tactical to get the frame undercut and re-textured will be expensive, but most can find a local guy if they try and save a ton of money.  Better yet, many just do it themselves. 

Holosun makes some lower red dots and some eliminate the need for the taller sights.  In fact, they now make dots that mount directly to an MOS slide without a plate.

I’m not calling anybody’s baby ugly, but I just don’t yet see the value in SS guns unless somebody is looking for certain cosmetic features.