Super accurate ARs?

[Grayfox54]

Ok, this is more about curiosity than anything else. So bear with me. 

I'm not really an AR kinda guy. I do own two. A 16" S&W M&P 15 and a 20" Colt Sporter Match. Both are combat accurate. Meaning 2-3" at 100 yards with mil-surp ammo.   BTW: I'm pretty much limited to a max of 100 yards for my shooting as I never got around to qualifying at longer distances. 

The thing is that I grew up on hunting and target rifles and In my mind anything over 1 MOA  just ain't cutting it.  Less is better. So, what does it take to get a sub MOA AR-15? I'm talkin' one small raged 1/2" or less hole at 100 yards. Is this purely a build proposition or are there factory rifles that can do this? And how much should such a rifle cost? 

Again, I'm not saying I'll run out and buy one, I'm just curious. BTW: I'm a big fan of Springfield Armory. Kinda thinking a Saint. Opinions? Is that good enough?

And shouldn't my Colt shoot better than that? It is a Match HBAR version after all. Can I improve it? 

[Alleycat72]

I have a green mountain 18" on a Seekins precision that's an honest 1/2 moa gun. 3 shots are incredibly tight. 5 shots usually just under 1/2. 10 shots in the .600s. All at 100 yards. It's a fantastic rifle. At 750 it gets up to 1.5 moa. If it's not free floating you'll never get it's full potential. 

[MCM]

Alleycat72, is that with one particular ammo/load?

[Alleycat72]

Varget with 69s

H335 with 62gr controlled chaos and 62 gr tsx.

[gregintenn]

Try some good ammo. We have quite a pile of them from top shelf to bargain basement, and they’ll all shoot at least MOA with decent ammo.

[Erich]

Talk about a loaded question!

There are some factory jobs intended to produce sub moa. Larue is one that comes to mind, he posts his results during development. His UU upper is around $700 and has shown <= .5 moa.

There are occasional “standard” milspec rifles  that out perform expectation. Comes down to luck of the draw on non match stuff.  One of my 6920’s has freakish accuracy over it’s two carbine siblings including a 6940. 5 round MOA out of the box though most AR guys would immediately call BS and ask for proof. My A4 is meh at best, all my carbines outshoot it.  

We’ve all no doubt seen this, but barrel barrel barrel. Heart of the platform for accuracy, followed by extension to upper tolerance/fit. 

There are other pieces that add to consistency  minimizing dispersion, but the barrel and it’s upper mating have to be up to the task for them to mater.

If your HBAR disappoints, you could put it up for sale here.

How are you shooting the HBAR for groups @100 yds? There is no optic on the carry handle. On irons with mil surplus @2” is quite good imo. An optic would better allow you to evaluate accuracy bs irons. I would do that before going to uber ammo. Having both would be best. 

If it is still not performing, It’s time  to remove barrel and check it for fit and torque. If it still won’t meeting expectation, the barrel may simply be on the wrong end of the tolerance. 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Erich

[Grayfox54]

Ok, let me put it this way. Is the 2-3" groups at 100 yards considered normal for these two rifles? Should I expect better? 

The Colt is really more of a nostalgia piece for me. Other than the A2 rear sight, its pretty close to what Uncle Sam handed me back in 1972. That's really why I own it.  Its basically just a range toy.  I usually do shoot it with open sights. But I do have a carry handle mount and a cheap 4X scope I put on from time to time. Honestly, it doesn't fit that well and tends to work loose after a while. So I don't use it much. 

The S&W has a 1-4X variable scope and is always shot using it. This one I consider a defensive rifle. 

Like I said, ARs really aren't my thing. I don't know the tricks you builders do. I'm just curious if there are some fairly simple things I can do to improve mine without spending a lot of money or replacing parts. Am I to understand that simply re-torqueing the barrel could make a real difference? 

But back to the original question: What does it take to get a sub-MOA rifle, recommendations and how much should it cost? 

[Gnarlytoes]

Two to three inches at 100 yards with bulk ammo is pretty much normal with any rifle. Most rifles, even the cheaper ones, are way more limited by ammo and shooter skill than anything else.

I have a couple of ARs I built for competition that are capable sub MOA all day every day with my handloads or expensive target ammo. Both will only achieve at best about 1.5 - 2 MOA with bulk ammo.

[Murgatroy]

2-3" with mixed ammo on open sights is great IMO. With a good scope and good ammo I am pretty sure that either of those rifles would shoot sub-MOA. 

[Handsome Rob]

All 3 of my ARs are budget builds, using whatever parts I could find in sale. 

.223/5.56, .300blk & .350 legend. All are wearing simple 1.5-4x24 scopes & all are sub moa guns. The .350 is the only one shooting factory ammo, since I don't shoot it enough to warrant loading for it. The .300 & .223 I spent quite a bit of time on load development & don't scrimp on components. The .223 hovers around .925" at 100 yds with a 10 shot group. Not as good as it could be, I'm sure, but I only have $400 in it & it's more than accurate enough to keep me happy. I've honestly never tried a 10 shot group with the .300 but it puts 5 into +/- .75 at 100 & is strictly a <150yd hunting rifle. 

I think, honestly, manufacturing technology has improved so much in the last 20 years, inherently inaccurate rifles are more the exception than the rule these days. Bulk ammo manufacture though, is still purely a numbers game & the acceptable tolerance range is far, far broader. Font forget, most mil-spec ammo is passable if it will hit a torso sized target at 300. That's about 4+moa.

[Moped]

Like all match rifles, ammo sensitivity is an issue.  Pretty much everyone I know that shoots matchs with any rifle, reloads for that specific rifle.  I think if you want your AR's to shoot better than 2 to 3" at 100 yards, that's the path you need to choose.  For my needs, 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards is fine.  I shot my last match almost 25 years ago.

[Grayfox54]

One of my issues is that I do not reload 5.56. I got my first AR a couple of years ago right when the ammo situation started going to Hell. Its been enough of a problem finding components for the calibers I already reload, that I haven't even bought dies for the 5.56. Just don't need the headaches of a new caliber right now. So I'm pretty much at the mercy of the market for my ARs. The majority of ammo I use is either mil-surp or cheap bulk stuff. Honestly, I haven't even been able to settle on a particular bullet weight or style for these rifles yet.   

I have bought a few boxes of premium ammo here and there as I find it. But so far there hasn't been any noticeable difference in accuracy. That's one of the reasons I started this thread. 

The truth is that the only reason I own these rifles is because there are so many people saying I shouldn't be able to own one. I'm kinda stubborn that way. 

[Erich]

11 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Like I said, ARs really aren't my thing. I don't know the tricks you builders do. I'm just curious if there are some fairly simple things I can do to improve mine without spending a lot of money or replacing parts. Am I to understand that simply re-torqueing the barrel could make a real difference? 

But back to the original question: What does it take to get a sub-MOA rifle, recommendations and how much should it cost? 

 

HBARs with good ammo / tuned loads are typically MOA or better. Colt never guaranteed it, and would likely claim only mil spec.

If you dont want to replace parts, accurizing / optimizing items. Its very much the same set of concepts that apply to action / stock / chassis platforms where you are taking out movement to reduce inconsistency, its just the analogs change.  In the AR the tips are looking at its flex and movement, mostly in the upper.

Flex is normally addressed by free floating to take out user induced flex variation. If you are sticking with current parts and handguards  its all up to the shooter to be exacting in technique, specif support point and loading pressure.

The barrel extension to upper mating tolerance. Typical tricks are shimming or using a bearing retaining compound like loctite to keep the extension from moving or shifting with heat cycles.  Right now you dont know what that is. It may be tight or may not. If the extension and upper bore on the ends of tolerance, you would typically get POI changes and possibly stringing as barrel is at different temps.. If dispersion does not significantly change with heating that's a good sign. Re-torquing would come with taking apart to see where you are.

The upper to lower mating. This one is almost controversial but taking out play (the much maligned accuwedge thing) keeps the shifting under fire to a minimum. If you can move or deflect it with the takedowns in place, that amount of movement is in play when shooting. You dont need to use one of those wedges, you can shim it at the rear. Aero adds a tension screw to their lower that supports the rear takedown pin boss for that reason. Just depends on how tight your current lockup is.

From your reply, I'll infer you were getting that 2-3" from irons and mil-spec. I suspect with an consistent optic, ammo, and just taking out the lockup movement (if any) a good bit of that would come down and tell you more.  I dont shoot AR irons well enough at range anymore, the sight picture is more challenging than a blade and post setup as far as consistency IMO.  I'd be envious of 2" at 100 on irons!  I

 

 

[Grayfox54]

Has anybody tried the accu-wedge?  Did it help? If so, how much? 

[Quavodus]

A friend at work has one he built that's way more accurate than most run of the mill ARs. Heavy stainless barrel and target grade trigger. 

[Danger Rane]

2 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Has anybody tried the accu-wedge?  Did it help? If so, how much? 

I used to use them in a couple of my issued M4s that had less than ideal upper to lower fitment. It helped some, but not as much as installing a free float rail and a better trigger. Even after those upgrades and shooting 75grn Hornady Match ammo I still couldn’t break into sub MOA at 100m with the M4 until I bumped up from an 4x ACOG to a 3-9x Leopold.

When I was younger I thought anything Mil-Spec was the bees knees. But after my time in the military and subsequent time as a Gov contractor in the procurement field, I won’t let anything “Mil-Spec” in my safe…wouldn’t want my good #### to get lazy or catch an STD.

On your M&P start with some match ammo of a weight that corresponds with your twist rate. If that doesn’t work throw a free float rail on it. If that doesn’t work throw a better trigger in there. If that doesn’t work throw a decent optic with 6x or better magnification on there. If that doesn’t work it’s probable you. On that note, have someone else shoot it at each of the above mentioned progressive steps to make sure it’s not you. If it’s you take a class.

[Grayfox54]

The thing is that I don't want to spend much money or go changing a bunch of parts. Remember, I'm not really an AR guy. Just a little frustrated with the ones I have as I think they should shoot better than they do. 

I have no desire to make any changes in the Colt. Its a range toy and I like it the way it is. Besides, I understand it has some collectability and I don't want to mess with that.

I did put a LaRue trigger in the M&P. That helped. But I've spent a fair bit of money in scope, mount, BUIS and such already.  I'm hesitant to put any more money into it.  

And here is where my lack of knowledge really starts to show.  I know nothing about twist rates in these things. I checked and the Colt is 1/7 while the M&P is 1/9. So what bullet weights should I be looking at? 

To be completely blunt here, I'm not a fan of the AR-15. I never liked the M-16 when I was in the Army and I put off buying an AR for more than 40 years. The only reason I own these is because the antis don't want me to have them and I got 'em at a pretty decent price at the time.  IF the S should ever HTF, I'm going right past these poodle shooters and grabbing my M1A Scout Squad. That's a real battle rifle to me. 

[DL126]

[Gnarlytoes]

The 1:9 twist should do best with 55-69 gr bullets. The 1:7 twist should do best with 69-77 gr bullets. ARs with free float handguards are usually more accurate than those with standard handguards. 

I also came from a bolt action hunting/target shooting background and had to change my expectations when I started shooting ARs. All else being equal, bolt action rifles are just inherently more accurate than semi-autos. Not to say semis can't be extremely accurate if built and tuned right, but you seldom find one that will hang with bolt actions straight out of the box. 

[Handsome Rob]

10 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

The thing is that I don't want to spend much money or go changing a bunch of parts. Remember, I'm not really an AR guy. Just a little frustrated with the ones I have as I think they should shoot better than they do. 

I have no desire to make any changes in the Colt. Its a range toy and I like it the way it is. Besides, I understand it has some collectability and I don't want to mess with that.

I did put a LaRue trigger in the M&P. That helped. But I've spent a fair bit of money in scope, mount, BUIS and such already.  I'm hesitant to put any more money into it.  

And here is where my lack of knowledge really starts to show.  I know nothing about twist rates in these things. I checked and the Colt is 1/7 while the M&P is 1/9. So what bullet weights should I be looking at? 

To be completely blunt here, I'm not a fan of the AR-15. I never liked the M-16 when I was in the Army and I put off buying an AR for more than 40 years. The only reason I own these is because the antis don't want me to have them and I got 'em at a pretty decent price at the time.  IF the S should ever HTF, I'm going right past these poodle shooters and grabbing my M1A Scout Squad. That's a real battle rifle to me. 

The question has pretty much been answered: Cheap, bulk & milsurp ammo are NOT your friends. To get any kind of consistent accuracy with your M&P you need consistent ammunition. Either buy it & accept that it's going to be $0.50 a shot or more, or load for it. 

The Colt, well, you're kinda limited by your sights & eyes. I wouldn't thumb my nose at 2-3"

Edited August 22, 2022 by Handsome Rob

[Handsome Rob]

Fyi, you could add a cheap, crappy, free float handguard to your M&P for under $50. It doesn't have to be expensive. 

[Grayfox54]

The thing is that I picked this particular model of the M&P because I wanted the Magpul furniture which came factory on it. Not sure I wanna change it either. I do like it. 

IDK, maybe I just felt like griping. Maybe I should just lower my expectations. These days nothing is as good as it once was. Why should a run of the mill AR be any different? After 50 years of hearing that the AR-15 is the greatest thing since sliced bread, I guess I just expected too much. 

I do believe I'm gonna try an Accu-wedge. They're cheap and it couldn't hurt. I'll also try to hunt up some 75-77 gr ammo to try in the Colt. And sooner or later I will have to start reloading 5.56 once components have gotten more available. I will be looking for advice there too. In fact, I think I'll start a new thread on that. 

Meanwhile, I guess I'll just try to live with it. 

[Alleycat72]

They are no different than bolt guns conceptually as far as accurizing goes. Once you get a good foundation and a few tools, changing barrel/cal is a 5 minute job. 

[Capbyrd]

49 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

The thing is that I picked this particular model of the M&P because I wanted the Magpul furniture which came factory on it. Not sure I wanna change it either. I do like it. 

IDK, maybe I just felt like griping. Maybe I should just lower my expectations. These days nothing is as good as it once was. Why should a run of the mill AR be any different? After 50 years of hearing that the AR-15 is the greatest thing since sliced bread, I guess I just expected too much. 

I do believe I'm gonna try an Accu-wedge. They're cheap and it couldn't hurt. I'll also try to hunt up some 75-77 gr ammo to try in the Colt. And sooner or later I will have to start reloading 5.56 once components have gotten more available. I will be looking for advice there too. In fact, I think I'll start a new thread on that. 

Meanwhile, I guess I'll just try to live with it. 

 

I may have an accuwedge at the house you can have.  If you changed your mind on the handguard, get the one below and I can install it for you for free and while I have it apart, I can shim the barrel.   
 

I can’t paste the link. 
 

but there is a BCM rail in the trading post. 

[DL126]

I have witnessed an over torqued muzzle device cause groups go to crap as well.

Some folks don't believe it can happen ... but it can.
I did it.
It was on my first build several years ago as I was experimenting with different type devices.
Fortunately, when I loosened it a bit, groups came back together.

Nowadays, whatever muzzle device I use is hand tight with blue loctite under it.
I don't use any that require timing.