How many Masons?

[deerslayer]

I didn't intend to represent something that wasn't; I simply read your post, which quoted Pike's argument that Masonry was not a religion, and it occurred to me that he seemed to contradict himself, IMO. If Masonry teaches all the tenents that all religions are based on, and "is the universal morality," then it sounds like someone is making the argument that it represents an original supreme religion, whatever that may be. It 's almost as if he is saying that it doesn't matter what religion you are, because they are all based on the "old primitive faith," which Masonry teaches and preserves. It's obvious that he's not dealing with a supreme being in this quote; he is describing what sounds like a supreme religion. I don't see how that's taking anything out of context.

BTW, I said "on the surface" to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[deerslayer]

However, to a person who does not know what Masonry teaches the quote could be twisted to say that Masonry is the supreme religion, which is one of the reasons Masonry gets a bad light shown upon it.

I didn't twist anything around; I simply gave my unbiased impression of what the quote said. Maybe it's just the way his quote is worded, but I can understand why people may get certain impressions about the Masons. Before I read Pike's quote and your response, I had no idea Masons were even accused of being a religion. I wouldn't use that quote to try to convince people otherwise if I were you.

I don't give one rodent's rump if they are a religion, a cult, or a beer drinking club. They do me no harm. My post was simply an observation.

Edited March 24, 2009 by deerslayer

[memphismason]

I didn't intend to represent something that wasn't; I simply read your post, which quoted Pike's argument that Masonry was not a religion, and it occurred to me that he seemed to contradict himself, IMO. If Masonry teaches all the tenents that all religions are based on, and "is the universal morality," then it sounds like someone is making the argument that it represents an original supreme religion, whatever that may be. It 's almost as if he is saying that it doesn't matter what religion you are, because they are all based on the "old primitive faith," which Masonry teaches and preserves. It's obvious that he's not dealing with a supreme being in this quote; he is describing what sounds like a supreme religion. I don't see how that's taking anything out of context.

BTW, I said "on the surface" to give you the benefit of the doubt.

The misconception that is showing in your post is that Masonry "represents an original supreme religion". This statement was never made.

Masonry preserves "the cardinal tenets of the old primitive faith", which was in existence before the concept of Masonry. This is not promoting Masonry as a "supreme religion".

[Smith]

The misconception that is showing in your post is that Masonry "represents an original supreme religion". This statement was never made.

Masonry preserves "the cardinal tenets of the old primitive faith", which was in existence before the concept of Masonry. This is not promoting Masonry as a "supreme religion".

These are circular arguments at best. Deerslayer is correct. Pike said what he said and you can keep saying that the words he used have different definitions than they do, but it won't change the intent. Masonry and Pike's intent are clear IMO, which is why I posted what I did earlier. While you obviously see it differently, the fact remains these are the base theological tenants and practices.

[Guest siegfried]

:hijack:I think we had a good discussion, but without starting any flaming etc. i still do wonder as to why Scotland, which seems to be the major contributor to Free-Masonry throughout history, did recently want to made public, the names of all of the Masons who serve in the Govt? Does the Scottish Govt. know something which most people dont know?

[Guest KWW67]

Imi n the Nashville/ Mt. Juliet area & would love to be able to get involved with the Masons. I just dont know where to start. My grandfather was a Shriner & was involved with alot of various organizations but hes no longer alive so I cant really ask him.

PM sent. I am just up the street from you. I am a Mt. Juliet boy myself.

[deerslayer]

The misconception that is showing in your post is that Masonry "represents an original supreme religion". This statement was never made.

Masonry preserves "the cardinal tenets of the old primitive faith", which was in existence before the concept of Masonry. This is not promoting Masonry as a "supreme religion".

Again, I am not partial to either side here...

Obviously, the "original supreme religion" was never a statement. It was an impression I got after reading his quote.

I'll buy your argument that Masonry simply embraces and promotes "the cardinal tenents of the old primitive faith" as an institution that existed before the Masons did. I can live with that. What I don't understand is "Masonry IS the universal morality." You'll have to come up with something good to make that quote sound harmless.

I think the important point for all Masons to note is that, before tonight, I knew very little of the Masons and certainly wasn't aware that they had been accused of being a religion. I read a simple two paragraph quote, and was left with the impression that they are a religion. I think you guys need to modify your message if you're going to convince people otherwise...

Edited March 24, 2009 by deerslayer

[TripleDigitRide]

I'm not a Mason, but I do often wonder, how long do you have to be a member before they start filling you in on the Top Secret stuff?

Surely someone has infiltrated this Secret Society, only to find out what the fuss is all about. I don't search it out, but I don't recall any members or former members talking publicly about what a bad group the Mason's are.

What happens if a member was to spill the beans about what goes on behind closed doors? Do they threaten such members and their families with death?

[memphismason]

I didn't twist anything around; I simply gave my unbiased impression of what the quote said. Maybe it's just the way his quote is worded, but I can understand why people may get certain impressions about the Masons. Before I read Pike's quote and your response, I had no idea Masons were even accused of being a religion. I wouldn't use that quote to try to convince people otherwise if I were you.

I don't give one rodent's rump if they are a religion, a cult, or a beer drinking club. They do me no harm. My post was simply an observation.

The quote is what I thought to be the best way to convey the thought that Masonry is not a religion, from the most quoted author on Masonry, to everyone. twisting the words is what has to be done to get from the quote that Masonry is the supreme religion.

To take from the quote that "Masonry is the supreme religion" is to ignore the wording that "the cardinal tenets of the old primitive faith, which underlie and are the foundation of all religions."

It is saying that Masonry teaches the cardinal tenets that can be found in all religions. Masonry is universal, and accept men from every country, sect, and opinion. That is why a particular religion is not required, just a belief in a monotheistic god, which includes Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc.

For someone who doesn't give a rodent's rump, you seemed to have formed an opinion or "observation" toward the negative very quickly.

The definition of religion is: the service and worship of God or the supernatural. Masonry does not teach any form of worship. It does teach morals that are found in religions,also found in the boy scouts, the girl scouts, the royal rangers, the YMCA, business courses, etc.

Look I don't believe your intent was malicious, it is just that Masonry has battled with this argument for years, and it is because people only take from what is written what they want to. All Masons would know what that quote was saying, and I would think everyone else could see it too.

It is saying that people argue over religion every day, wars are fought based on these arguments, but the funny thing is, God is understood the same in each religion. The people have allowed their hearts to be hardened by the rules of men, and can not see that the "Golden Rule" has existed since time immemorial, and is part of the foundation of both sides.

Masonry acknowledges this, and tries to expound on this thought, teach its members "to regard the whole human species as one family; the high and the low, the rich and the poor, who as created by one Almighty Parent and inhabitants of the same planet, are to aid, support, and protect each other".

I mean no harm in my words, just offering a glimpse into Masonry. Deerslayer I hope you have not taken this as an attack on you, for it was not. You were able to question something, which allowed me the slot to explain what I understand to be fact, and for that I am thankful.

[Guest KWW67]

Masonry is not a religion. And it is not secret. The lodges are visible from the street, meeting times are on the sign on the bldg, and the lodges structure and mission is on pamphlets available to anyone. Many charitable contributions and community service also come from the lodge. Most interesting, every Shriner must be a mason. Ask people what they think of the masons and out comes the garbage. Ask them about a Shriner and they love them. That just shows the lack of knowledge. Are there some things that are known only to members? Yes. But that is with any social organization. Say college fraternities? People should educate themselves before spreading untruths about any organization.... I can asssure you there is nothing immoral in masonry. No beer, no women and no devils. As matter of fact, it can get you put out!. Only upstanding, moral men may be made a mason. Just google famous masons. This country was formed by many.

Edited March 24, 2009 by KWW67
Spelling

[TripleDigitRide]

What is the point of being secretive?

When becoming a Mason, do they give you a reason?

Would any harm be done if these secrets were revealed to the general public? If so, generally speaking, what kind of harm?

[Fadex]

Heck...I can tell you more about Masonry than I could my college Fraternity, that's where the real secrets are!!! lol

[deerslayer]

For someone who doesn't give a rodent's rump, you seemed to have formed an opinion or "observation" toward the negative very quickly.

And that's my point!!!

I was just a casual observer with no bias or agenda, and that is what it screamed to me. Maybe your message needs to be reworded, because if an unbiased, casual observer gets this impression, it's just free ammo for those who are out to bash the Masons.

[memphismason]

Again, I am not partial to either side here...

Obviously, the "original supreme religion" was never a statement. It was an impression I got after reading his quote.

I'll buy your argument that Masonry simply embraces and promotes "the cardinal tenents of the old primitive faith" as an institution that existed before the Masons did. I can live with that. What I don't understand is "Masonry IS the universal morality." You'll have to come up with something good to make that quote sound harmless.

I think the important point for all Masons to note is that, before tonight, I knew very little of the Masons and certainly wasn't aware that they had been accused of being a religion. I read a simple two paragraph quote, and was left with the impression that they are a religion. I think you guys need to modify your message if you're going to convince people otherwise...

To have never known, before tonight, that Masonry has been accused of being a religion, show that you have not been exposed to many discussions in the field of Freemasonry. Which is fine, and I see it as a blessing.

"Masonry is the Universal Morality".........Morality found within Masonry is universal, and Masonry only teaches universal morality. It does not teach a morality that would only apply to a certain sect of people, but it encompasses the thoughts and basis of all religions.

"Hi-Point is the universal pistol"

"Glock is the universal combat pistol"

Both above statements are as true as my name is Jason, but again they are just opinion.

Albert Pike was one man, who wrote a great deal about a Fraternity he loved, in an era when words meant different things then they do now (1871). If something in Pikes writings has caused you to believe something that is not taught in Masonry then so be it, I am not the one to try to convince you otherwise, and you are not the first to be on this bandwagon.

However, to take from that quote, the things you have, makes me believe you came into this discussion with a preconceived notion about Masonry, and there is nothing I or any other Mason can say to change that.

The words I have chosen to use to debate this issue are not the words of any specific Masonic body, but they are my own. There may be Masons who disagree, and that is fine to each his own, this is just my understanding.

[deerslayer]

I can asssure you there is nothing immoral in masonry. No beer, no women and no devils

Since when is beer immoral?

[memphismason]

What is the point of being secretive?

When becoming a Mason, do they give you a reason?

Would any harm be done if these secrets were revealed to the general public? If so, generally speaking, what kind of harm?

The so called secrets of Masonry are.......There aren't any

In the age of the internet everything we do is printed on the web. There are no secrets left.

Back in the day when the Stone Masons had their guilds, their secrets (geometry and the use of building tools) were not known to the common person. These were the secrets that they held so dear.

During the enlightenment, men who were not stone masons were allowed to joined, and thus started the age of Speculative Masonry.

Edited March 24, 2009 by memphismason

[Guest KWW67]

If the very few "secrets" were known by all, then anyone would be able to pass themselves off as masons and reap the benefits of a mason. A mason has well earned his status within the fraternity and it is a distinguished honor to call your self a mason. All men who wish to become a mason may not become a mason. It is not easy to come by and hard earned. Once a man becomes a mason, he has become a proud man. An old man told me if all men acted like masons, we would have a wonderful place to live. A world of givers not takers and a world of men who will extend their hand to help their neighbor without expecting anything in return.

[memphismason]

Since when is beer immoral?

LOL

Alcohol is not allowed in the Masonic Lodge.

It is acceptable in the Shrine.

When we are at the Lodge, it is assured that there will be no drinking. this is one positive we have that appeals to the family man....well to some family men.

[Guest KWW67]

Memphismason said: "In the age of the internet everything we do is printed on the web. There are no secrets left."

ANYTHING you read on the internet may or may not be true. M ost is speculated and very off course. If you are that interested, just ASK12B1 and find out first first hand. There are things that can not be told to you. If you are that interested, join and it will all make sense.

You would be very suprised at the hype and the untrue rumors.

Edited March 24, 2009 by KWW67

[Fadex]

Actually some lodges up North do have alcohol in the lodge. I know that it's a big no go here though.

[deerslayer]

you are not the first to be on this bandwagon.

However, to take from that quote, the things you have, makes me believe you came into this discussion with a preconceived notion about Masonry, and there is nothing I or any other Mason can say to change that.

One jumps on a bandwagon after hearing what all the others are saying and doing and deciding to go along with the mob, not by independently getting an impression which happens to parallel others' beliefs.

If you believe I entered this debate with preconceived notions, then you are the one who is mistaken. You can take that to the bank. I didn't know anything about them, and still don't. I read one quote, got an impression, and next thing I know, I've jumped on the bandwagon with all the Mason-bashers. And I'm the one who's close-minded?

[memphismason]

If the very few "secrets" were known by all, then anyone would be able to pass themselves off as masons and reap the benefits of a mason. A mason has well earned his status within the fraternity and it is a distinguished honor to call your self a mason. All men who wish to become a mason may not become a mason. It is not easy to come by and hard earned. Once a man becomes a mason, he has become a proud man. An old man told me if all men acted like masons, we would have a wonderful place to live. A world of givers not takers and a world of men who will extend their hand to help their neighbor without expecting anything in return.

+1

It is about being part of something larger than yourself, and making a difference in the lives of people who need a helping hand. Faith, Hope, and Charity, admonish us to have Faith in God, Hope in Immortality, and Charity to all Mankind.

Can this be done elsewhere and by other means than joining the Freemasons. Absolutely.

We are just one avenue to take in Making Good Men Better.

I have found that my spiritual well being has improved since I have started inculcating the lessons taught in Masonry in my everyday life. I have found myself becoming a better Christian, a better Dad, and a better Husband. Not everyone takes from Masonry the same things, but it is not because it is not there for the taking.

[memphismason]

One jumps on a bandwagon after hearing what all the others are saying and doing and deciding to go along with the mob, not by independently getting an impression which happens to parallel others' beliefs.

If you believe I entered this debate with preconceived notions, then you are the one who is mistaken. You can take that to the bank. I didn't know anything about them, and still don't. I read one quote, got an impression, and next thing I know, I've jumped on the bandwagon with all the Mason-bashers. And I'm the one who's close-minded?

I guess bandwagon was just as bad as a term as "the Supreme Religion"

closed minds play the part of prison cells.

[TripleDigitRide]

If the very few "secrets" were known by all, then anyone would be able to pass themselves off as masons and reap the benefits of a mason.

What are the benefits of being a Mason that the "Average Joe" could benefit from by going around falsely portraying himself as a Mason.

[deerslayer]

I guess bandwagon was just as bad as a term as "the Supreme Religion"

closed minds play the part of prison cells.

I wonder if I am the only one who has ever read Pike's words with an unbiased mind, independently formed an opinion based on those words, then been chastised for pondering what apparently many others have also surmised after reading those words. No wonder you guys have problems.