Another interesting auction ...

[No_0ne]

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/939230281

[monkeylizard]

Smells like laundry up in here. 

[No_0ne]

12 hours ago, monkeylizard said:

Smells like laundry up in here. 

You lost me on that one ...

[KahrMan]

2 hours ago, No_0ne said:

You lost me on that one ...

A good way for criminals to launder money is to over pay for common item, like firearms. Not saying that is what is happening in the above sale but anytime something sells for an unrealistic price it makes you wonder. 

[A.J. Holst]

I know someone who lives in the area!

Rehoboth Beach, DE 19971

 

[et45]

14 hours ago, KahrMan said:

A good way for criminals to launder money is to over pay for common item, like firearms. Not saying that is what is happening in the above sale but anytime something sells for an unrealistic price it makes you wonder. 

Or open a mattress store

[No_0ne]

16 hours ago, KahrMan said:

A good way for criminals to launder money is to over pay for common item, like firearms. Not saying that is what is happening in the above sale but anytime something sells for an unrealistic price it makes you wonder. 

Ah, I see.  I guess it depends on how you define "overpaid" and "common".  I didn't post this auction as an example of either, as PE snipers are virtually unknown outside of museums.  This one is a (mostly) original and complete example, and therefore highly desirable among those who know these firearms.  As for overpaying, that's debatable, as the supply of these is essentially none and the demand relatively high among Mosin collectors.  The buyer is well-known in that community and knew exactly what he was buying, as did his chief competitor in the bidding.  I meant it more as an example of how high prices can go for some of the uncommon examples of Russian/Soviet weapons today ...

[Gurn]

This is true. There are some deep pocket collectors out there.  I have a Finnish “ scope less “ sniper that I lucked into at a small gunshow. I’ve been offered a lot more than I paid for it.  

[RandyB]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:30 PM, KahrMan said:

A good way for criminals to launder money is to over pay for common item, like firearms. Not saying that is what is happening in the above sale but anytime something sells for an unrealistic price it makes you wonder. 

I never could figure this out. How does over paying for anything launder money? What the person paid becomes a permanent record on the internet. If anything, the buyer would still end up having to prove where they got the cash to buy the item.

What am I missing?

[monkeylizard]

It's the buyer laundering the money through the seller, often in cahoots with one another.

Let's say you I and are involved in less-than-legal activities. We each have $20K in cash shoved in shoeboxes but have no official income so eyebrows get raised if either of us go buy a car or a boat. Instead, I can sell you a Cheeto that looks like Elvis for $20K, and you can sell me a one-of-a-kind watercolor painted by your 3 year old nephew.

We now each have $20K made through the sale of legitimate items and neither of us are out more than a Cheeto and Arte de Toddler. We can now claim our $20K as income (and pay taxes on it) and use the remainder for high dollar purchases like cars, boats, or houses. Repeating the process gets more money into the system OR hides the same money a second, third, or fourth time. Each time it gets harder to trace back to the original illicit source.

More legitimacy (and more money), and less suspicion can be added by using something with actual value instead of my Elvis Cheto and your nephew's painting if a duck but still overpaying. Doing it through a public place like Gunbroker or eBay adds credibility because it's out in public. The buyer and seller can create several dummy accounts to bid up the price to make it look like it was a real auction and the high price is legitimate. Only if someone goes digging real deep into the accounts would they find they all trace back to the same person. Of course the more money you're laundering, and the more people involved, the more pathways there are and the more obfuscated the actual process becomes.

In this case, if the buyer and seller were actually cahooting to launder money, there probably never was a rifle to begin with and if there was, it never really changed hands.

Edited July 31, 2022 by monkeylizard

[RandyB]

Seems very expensive to do. Add in state sales tax as well as gunbroker fees. Then pay income tax, possibly state income tax, and social security tax on the profits. 

Not saying it doesn’t happen but that is a lot of cash to lose to show a paper trail that can be easily investigated.

Edited July 31, 2022 by RandyB

[Gurn]

Mmmmm Cheetos, now I’m hungry 

[No_0ne]

6 hours ago, RandyB said:

Seems very expensive to do. Add in state sales tax as well as gunbroker fees. Then pay income tax, possibly state income tax, and social security tax on the profits. 

Not saying it doesn’t happen but that is a lot of cash to lose to show a paper trail that can be easily investigated.

Remember, ultimately it was his failure to pay income taxes that finally brought Al Capone to justice. In the case of illicit income, paying taxes is an essential component of covering the source of the money ...

[monkeylizard]

15 hours ago, RandyB said:

Seems very expensive to do. Add in state sales tax as well as gunbroker fees. Then pay income tax, possibly state income tax, and social security tax on the profits. 

Not saying it doesn’t happen but that is a lot of cash to lose to show a paper trail that can be easily investigated.

Here's the thing. People who launder money usually only launder a small portion of their illicit gains. The taxes, fees, and kickbacks are the cost of cleaning some of it and they accept that fact. If Tony Montoya is sitting on $500 million in cash from his import business, and wants to buy a $10 million house on the water in Miami, he'll launder $20 million and come out with the clean $10m he needs. The house actually cost him $20 million, but he's still sitting on $480 million, tax free, so no complaints there.

The larger the operation, the more opportunity there is to setup a legitimate business to launder even more money. Take the mob for example. They could run that intimidation and stolen cigarette money through their restaurants, freight companies, casinos, etc. where it comes out clean.

Remember you only need to clean the money you want to use for legitimate purposes. No need to clean the cash you're using to pay bribes, your henchmen, your supplier, etc.

If it's done right, it's not easily investigated. Money is laundered multiple times and through offshore corporations. The paper trail isn't like the movies.

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by monkeylizard