Preferred methods of carry.

[Tom B]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:29 PM, scatman said:

To those of you saying, "I dont open carry because.......," I don't think you're considering about people going hunting/camping/hiking, where you're not so much in the public eye. Also, in today's current overall situation, I say it's safe to assume every person around you has a firearm, regardless if you can see it or not.

 Yea, the only time I open carry is when out hiking, or doing trail work.

[ehull20000]

I prefer AIWB.

Most of the time I carry a full size pistol in a Phlster pro on a Flex rig.

If printing is an issue I carry a small pistol in a Phlster pro on an Enigma.

 

[DocHawk]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:20 PM, Snaveba said:

?

As an American of partial Hispanic heritage recently relocated from the American Southwest, please allow me to translate. "Mexican Carry" = a derogatory description of the dangerous practice of stuffing a loaded and chambered handgun in your waistband, so-named because it is stereotypical of an uneducated Hispanic gang-banger lacking the money and motivation to obtain a holster. "Ambi" because hey, if having one gun go off in your pants is Bueno, having two guns go off in your pants must be Muy Bueno!

[Smith]

18 minutes ago, DocHawk said:

As an American of partial Hispanic heritage recently relocated from the American Southwest, please allow me to translate. "Mexican Carry" = a derogatory description of the dangerous practice of stuffing a loaded and chambered handgun in your waistband, so-named because it is stereotypical of an uneducated Hispanic gang-banger lacking the money and motivation to obtain a holster. "Ambi" because hey, if having one gun go off in your pants is Bueno, having two guns go off in your pants must be Muy Bueno!

Well ... There's a California translation if I've ever seen one. 

I believe it originated more from the western tradition of holster less waistband carry. Typical of the time south of the border. Not sure it's a racially charged degredation of Hispanic gangs. Using your logic, it would have been better addressed as the "Compton carry" or better yet the "Burress Tuck"

And I'm an authority because much of my family is Hispanic, first generation American from Mexico.

[DocHawk]

28 minutes ago, Smith said:

Well ... There's a California translation if I've ever seen one. 

[...]

And I'm an authority because much of my family is Hispanic, first generation American from Mexico.

No sir, your California assertions are no more correct than you believing yourself to be an authority based on race. I've delivered tactical training to Navy SEALS on San Clemente, US BORTAC teams in Texas, FLETC students in Georgia, trained guest SF teams from Europe and Africa, and AIF across the Pacific, East Asia, and throughout SOUTHCOM. I've been in the firearms industry for decades and had thousands of carry discussions with tens of thousands of shooters.

No professional shooter, no person professionally involved in the shooting community, and certainly no Mexican professionals I've ever met share your opinion of the term "Mexican Carry" being a romantic vision of the Old West. We all cite it as a laugh and a put-down. Edit for clarity: While it did *originate* with the old vaqueros keeping a pistola concealed in their waistbands under their jackets or vests to go armed where it was illegal to do so, nobody cites it in this manner anymore. But by all means, as a first generation Mexican American, you go right ahead believing whatever you like.

Edited November 20, 2022 by DocHawk

[Defender]

5 minutes ago, DocHawk said:

No sir, your California assertions are no more correct than you believing yourself to be an authority based on race. I've delivered tactical training to Navy SEALS on San Clemente, US BORTAC teams in Texas, FLETC students in Georgia, trained guest SF teams from Europe and Africa, and AIF across the Pacific, East Asia, and throughout SOUTHCOM. I've been in the firearms industry for decades and had thousands of carry discussions with tens of thousands of shooters. No professional shooter, no person professionally involved in the shooting community, and certainly no Mexican professionals I've ever met share your opinion of the term "Mexican Carry" being a romantic vision of the Old West. We all cite it as a laugh and a put-down. But by all means, as a first generation Mexican American, you go right ahead believing whatever you like.

Well, could be that some use it as a derogatory term, but then, there’s this, which I think may have some basis in historical fact: https://legionary.com/mexican-carry-what-is-it-and-should-you-be-using-it/  and this, by a well recognized member of the gun community:  Massad Ayoob says:
The [Mexican Carry] term is not perjorative. It arose long ago among gun people. In homage to proud Mexican men of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Beset by trants who stripped them of liberties, including the right to carry guns if they were not part of the political elite, these defiant citizens.... needed to be able to ditch the gun to be retrieved later if they were about to have contact with Federales, and since a holster could not be so quickly ditched and would be prima facie evidence of resistance to tyrants' law, the holster was dispensed with.
- The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry

[Smith]

11 minutes ago, DocHawk said:

No sir, your California assertions are no more correct than you believing yourself to be an authority based on race. I've delivered tactical training to Navy SEALS on San Clemente, US BORTAC teams in Texas, FLETC students in Georgia, trained guest SF teams from Europe and Africa, and AIF across the Pacific, East Asia, and throughout SOUTHCOM. I've been in the firearms industry for decades and had thousands of carry discussions with tens of thousands of shooters. No professional shooter, no person professionally involved in the shooting community, and certainly no Mexican professionals I've ever met share your opinion of the term "Mexican Carry" being a romantic vision of the Old West. We all cite it as a laugh and a put-down. But by all means, as a first generation Mexican American, you go right ahead believing whatever you like.

I stand corrected. I also believe you missed the sarcasm.  

The full articleearch Co

Mexican carry: misunderstood as to both history and application - By Mas Ayoob

A feature article by Massad Ayoob:

Mexican carry: misunderstood as to both history and application, this common practice can cause some well-documented problems

In the 2004 American Handgunner Annual, in an article on concealed handgun carry, I made the point that there were a lot of reasons not to simply stuff the pistol into the waistband without a holster. This practice is known colloquially as Mexican Carry. One reader wrote, shocked, to ask why I would use such a "racist" term. I was reminded that we old, gray gunnies can't take for granted that the new generation knows where our ancient lingo came from.

Honorable History

If you go back to the roots of this term, you find that there is no racism, nor anything else pejorative in "Mexican Carry." The lore of the gun tells us that back in the 19th Century, the Mexican vaquero, much like the American cowboy, was an independent and self-reliant sort who often made it a point to carry a handgun. Alas, the history of 19th century Mexico was entailed one despot rising after another. The day came when the average citizen was stripped of his former right to go armed when he wished.

This did not sit well with the fiercely freedom-loving caballeros. They grudgingly took off their gun belts and holsters, because possession of those accoutrements would be seen as evidence that they had violated the draconian new laws that disarmed them. However, they defiantly kept their handguns, simply stuffing them into the waistband behind their ordinary belt. If the Federales hove into view, the citizen would simply slip his revolver into some discreet place where he could retrieve it later.

Thus, as I understand the history of the matter, there's nothing culturally negative about "Mexican Carry," as it became known. When we use the term, we're paying homage to generations of men south of the border who refused to give up the right to protect themselves and their families because petty tyrants attempted to make them helpless.

Theory and Practice

As noted in the Handgunner Annual piece, professionals have gotten away from Mexican carry. The gun can shift inside the waistband. It can even slip out unnoticed when you lie down for a nap. On a sedentary day that involves nothing more strenuous than a walk through the mall, you may get by with Mexican carry, but the moment action takes place--running, fighting, you name it--the chance increases exponentially that the insecurely-held pistol may become dislodged.

Some handguns carry better this way than others. One fellow thrust a cocked derringer, loaded with a .410 shotshell, inside his waistband. The spur trigger struck the edge of his belt, and the pistol fired, emasculating him. A proper trigger guard, and preferably both a heavy trigger pull and a manual safety, will go far to prevent accidental discharges in Mexican Carry.

Revolvers don't work well for this. The belt holds the widest part, the cylinder, and when gravity goes to work there's no catch point to keep the wheel-gun from sliding down the trouser leg. Old time cops wrapped rubber bands around their stocks to prevent this, but it was only a marginally efficient expedient. The slim, flat-sided 1911 (not called "old slabsides" for nothing) is more stable and comfortable than most when carried this way. However, shifting against the body can sometimes wipe off the safety catch. If the safety lever is ambidextrous, there's no holster to protect the outside lever from being wiped to the "off" position by the forearm. At such moments, the grip safety doesn't seem so extraneous after all. A striker-fired auto like the Glock? Glock itself strongly recommends not carrying with a round in the chamber unless the pistol's trigger guard area is properly protected by a holster. When the gun's manufacturer talks, I listen.

Final Advice

A belt clip attached in some way to the gun--the Barami Hip Grip for a revolver, or the Brown & Pharr Belt Clip for a 1911, for example--can keep the gun from "trundling down the pant leg," as Col. Charles Askins, Jr. described a personal experience that awakened him to the dangers of Mexican Carry. But it won't keep body parts from pushing the gun up and out of the waistband during vigorous activity.

Unless there's an emergency need, don't take short cuts. Invest in a moderately priced, thin-body inside the waistband holster with the kind of attachment clip that bites like a pit bull. The Ted Blocker DA-3 and Alessi Talon come to mind, but there are several other good ones. It only takes another few seconds to put on or take off, but will he much more secure, and the very slight added thickness of the holster is more than balanced comfort-wise by the reduction in gun shifting.

Mexican Carry is an interesting artifact of defensive handgun history, and can sometimes be the lesser of two evils when a pistol needs to be carried unexpectedly. But it usually causes more problems than it solves, and is left to history rather than practice by most competent handgunners.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Smith

[DocHawk]

1 minute ago, Defender said:

Well, could be that some use it as a derogatory term, but then, there’s this, which I think may have some basis in historical fact: https://legionary.com/mexican-carry-what-is-it-and-should-you-be-using-it/  and this, by a well recognized member of the gun community:  Massad Ayoob says:
The [Mexican Carry] term is not perjorative. 

Good post, Defender. I was just editing my post when yours came through, with essentially the same info. Note Ayoob and I are not in overall disagreement - he cites the *origins* of the term. He says it is not pejorative. However, whenever I have used the term or heard it used, we are specifically describing an undesirable carry method, and usually pejorative describing the person carrying.

Compromises must always be made in carry. Size and caliber vs concealment. Carry position vs clothing and physique. Quick detach holster vs fixed belt loops. Or in the case of Mexican carry, old school concealment and ditchability vs going unarmed. It isn't *racially* charged by nature... thats not what I am saying, although it now does paint an associative picture in professional shooting circles. The people who are stereotypically encountered today conducting Mexican Carry are not independent vaqueros defending their way of life from an overbearing tyrannical government. And those who *are* living as modern-day vaqueros have modern-day holster options, if they are educated.

[scatman]

Well, you learn something new every day. I've never heard the term "Mexican carry." So that was an interesting bit of history. 

[DocHawk]

12 minutes ago, Smith said:

I stand corrected. I also believe you missed the sarcasm.  

I did indeed, and I apologize. Please forgive me and extend me a little grace in understanding; having given up my dream home, my lifelong friends, my extended family, my community ties, and my life's work all because of a state that I could no longer support with my tax dollars, almost no insult could cut closer to my bone than calling me Californian.

Edited November 20, 2022 by DocHawk

[DocHawk]

Steering the conversation more collaboratively, something I will mention is that in those many discussions of carry, something we have often landed on in agreement is that if there does arise an emergency need to carry a handgun without a holster, a semiauto is best carried in Condition Three (no round in the chamber). The horrible loss of combat readiness on the draw is preferable to the horrific potential for an SA or SA/DA trigger to Glock Leg the carrier.

[scatman]

3 minutes ago, DocHawk said:

The horrible loss of combat readiness on the draw is preferable to the horrific potential for an SA or SA/DA trigger to Glock Leg the carrier.

Do tell, what does "Glock Leg" mean?

[monkeylizard]

1 hour ago, scatman said:

Do tell, what does "Glock Leg" mean?

It's a negligent discharge when holstering/unholstering  the gun. It can happen with any gun by a person using poor handling techniques, but It's theoretically more likely to occur in a striker fired pistol than a gun with a manual safety, an SA revolver, or a DA revolver with a 100 lb. trigger.

Strikers do have safeties, but not a manually actuated lever to lower a firing pin block or allow the trigger to move as a manual safety gun would have. The person effectively shoots themselves in the leg, the foot, or at least gets a nice powder burn on the thigh and a brown stain in their pants. Since Glocks are by far the most common and well-known striker-fired pistols, it's known as  "Glock leg".

It's an overblown thing commonly used as a rallying cry by people who like big heavy steel revolvers and 1911s and have an irrational need to hate the plastic fantastics.

In the context DocHawk mentioned it with holsterless carry, a striker fired pistol should never be carried with one in the chamber. Personally, I'd say that's true of a DA/SA with a manual safety too without a holster.

One cause of this very uncommon issue is something like a shirt tail getting in the way and "pulling" the trigger as the gun is reholstered. Another is the shooter having their finger on the trigger as they draw or reholster. Practicing good trigger discipline and clothing management during your dry fire draw/holster movements with an unloaded gun on a regular basis is a really good way to mitigate the risk, no matter what/how you carry.

Edited November 20, 2022 by monkeylizard

[gregintenn]

Ruger LCP in a pocket holster, strong side front pants pocket. I also have a spare mag and small flashlight in a carrier in my weak side front pocket.

[DocHawk]

1 hour ago, scatman said:

Do tell, what does "Glock Leg" mean?

Monkeylizard provided a great summary. As he mentioned, it applies to any striker-fired pistol or hammer-fired with an SA mode. The reason Glock's name got specifically associated with the negligent discharge was that the introduction of the striker pistol into widespread service with LE and security in the 80's and 90's was met with heavy resistance of a certain segment of the population who were tied to their revolvers, full metal/thumb safety S&W's, and the like. There were a handful of reasonable considerations backing these opinions, and a boatload of emotional attachment and cognitive dissonance. The Glocks were derided as "unsafe Tupperware guns."

The wide distribution of Glocks unfortunately revealed unsafe practices in law enforcement gun handling. Many officers tended to index on the trigger with their finger on the draw. The gun transition revealed this problem with far greater frequency than before, because the double-digit pounds of trigger weight on a typical service revolver allowed for this nonsense without consequence. On a striker fired pistol without a manual safety, however, the Basic Firearm Safety Rules are very important. Worse, some officers were bit by their habit of riding that trigger upon reholstering, with the inevitable holster pinch leading to a bang instead of a physical reminder to withdraw the finger.

Inadequate training was of course found to be the problem, not an inadequate firearm. However, the term Glock Leg has stuck, and just like "Mexican Carry" it is spoken in professional circles with a bit of tongue-in-cheek double meaning. 

[ohell]

 for some reason this symbol is offensive to some but in most all cases it’s just ok.  
yep. Not Compton with a switch and ready to brandish.   I’m not getting the chit sued out of me, going to jail…to help you.   *carry with exception of places LEO are there to protect and it’s written off limits. Beyond that if I’m forced to visit unfriendly territory with management that wants me to chance it, finding the non or improperly posted entrance and walk on.  OWB or printing is going to get you flagged by some sensitive  one day. Holsterless easier to hide in TN summer.  
2a unfriendly employers active shooter/stabber/bat welding training: 1. run away (good choice), 2. hide (ok)   3. use improvised weapons if you have to fight. You can throw staplers and coffee all you want, Mexican carry for me. 

 

[kwe45919]

Tried many ways and types of carry over the years. Always IWB unless at the range or in the wilderness. 

 IWB is 6 o'clock. 

[Luckyforward]

Concealed - Bullard Leather crossdraw holster (right to left) under shirt or coat

[Three Bean Dad]

I used to carry IWB in various positions, but I have found that I can usually find a compact, tight to the body OWB holster that will work for most weapons with an an untucked shirt.  The larger the gun, the more I shift the holster back on my hip to 4 or 5 o'clock.  If it is something like a micro 9mm then I stay pretty close to 3 or 3:30.

[Rainsford]

4:00 for me

[grasshoppa]

Aiwb for me . Right next to my belt buckle. Carried for years but found this my fav even being a fat boy having to deal with the “250th parallel “

[farmerpabs]

AIWB

[dkelly27]

when my pants fit properly i carry IWB. when they don't i have a couple of belt slides that work.

[leroy]

Behind the hip.  IWB or OWB depending on the shirt.  Front pocket with a small pistola...

leroy...

[SierraTangoKilo]

IWB, 4:00