How much longer.

[Guest nraforlife]

Now much longer until the few true patriots stand up and push back hard? Look at all the issues in this country and how our elected whores are running the country into the ground. We are a country of laws and we need to follow the law is BS when self serving hypocritical pandering asswipes are creating laws that are screwing the country. For those who are going to say well we can make a change in 2010 my question back to you is ok, what you going to do when the same :poop:heads or worse are elected?

Edited March 20, 2009 by nraforlife

[BimmerFreak]

Now much longer until the few true patriots stand up and push back hard? Look at all the issues in this country and how our elected whores are running the country into the ground. We are a country of laws and we need to follow the law is BS when the people making the laws are creating laws that are screwing the country. For those who are going to say well we can make a change in 2010 my question back to you is ok, what you going to do when the same :poop:heads or worse are elected?

How would you suggest we "push back" ?

[TGO David]

Here's a thought... the modern day Patriots aren't going to come riding through your village with muskets on horseback. They are probably going to fight the man at the election booths, through blogs, web sites, and letter writing campaigns.

But if you wanna put up or shut up, I'll place a call to Fox News and have them cover your armed rebellion against the Government.

[Guest nraforlife]

How would you suggest we "push back" ?

Everyone needs to decide this on their own. Like minded folks will eventually gravitate toward each other.

[Guest nraforlife]

Here's a thought... the modern day Patriots aren't going to come riding through your village with muskets on horseback. They are probably going to fight the man at the election booths, through blogs, web sites, and letter writing campaigns.

But if you wanna put up or shut up, I'll place a call to Fox News and have them cover your armed rebellion against the Government.

What armed rebellion are you referring to? You are assuming that to push back hard requires armed action as a first, second, third or any step when there are smart ways to push back hard that does not require force just intelligence.

[Garufa]

Now much longer until the few true patriots stand up and push back hard? Look at all the issues in this country and how our elected whores are running the country into the ground. We are a country of laws and we need to follow the law is BS when self serving hypocritical pandering asswipes are creating laws that are screwing the country. For those who are going to say well we can make a change in 2010 my question back to you is ok, what you going to do when the same :poop:heads or worse are elected?

What action have you taken, sir? What are your suggestions?

I'm not trying to slam you but people have been bitching about the government long before any of us were born.

The usual reaction is to cling to one of two parties, both of which are abyssimal failures as they are more concerned with their "own" or imposing personal moral values on the populace as opposed to doing what is their sworn duty.

So, is putting the Republicans back in charge in '10 going to set things right. No. Until there is a fundamental change in the moral and ethical character OF ALL PEOPLE IN THIS GREAT NATION. Nothing will change.

Only when elected officials once again become servants of the people will we see a change.

[TGO David]

I'm giving this thread just a little longer to redeem itself and become something more than the type of crap that I said we weren't going to allow here any more. If it doesn't get there quickly, it's gone.

[BimmerFreak]

I dont know what sort of "actions" you guys are talking about, but here are some of the things I have personally done:

Active in my city and county community and government

(unsuccessfully) ran for County Commissioner

Active in the Republican party in my county

Financially support candidates in City, County, State, and Federal races

Active in NRA and other organizations that support and promote my views

But let me also inform any domestic terrorists (or tinfoil hat patriots) that I have also spent the last 21 years of my adult life training for, and leading brave men into combat.

I will remind you of the oath I (and many like me) took:

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

[Rightwinger]

The order of command progression in the oath says it all!

Even much older, out of shape and the eyes getting blurry, I re-affirm that that oath still shapes my actions and thoughts in life.

Thanks for putting it out there Joe. I think that was a great affirmation of where you stand and where more of us should strive to be.

I need to find my way into my local govt here rather than sitting on the sidelines watching them

[Fallguy]

While I am not suggesting any specific course of action. I do feel the "leaders" in Washington are just as out of touch with the "people" as the crown was with the colonies 200+ years ago.

As far as the oath mentioned...remember, it is to defend the constitution, not necessarily to blindly follow the orders of those above you.

I personally think that those in D.C. are much more violating the constitution than anyone that might seek to remove them from office.

But I agree David is overall right about the best course action to deal with things...even if it will take longer.

[TGO David]

Actually, the oath also says ... "and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me"

[Guest mustangdave]

Joe...Rightwinger...David...and any other of you guys especially us Retired Military types...remember the oath still applies, as does the UCMJ.

[Guest jackdog]

Actually, the oath also says ... "and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me"

you are correct. But A military person has the right to refuse any order that they feel to be illegal. Once again when looking at the oath you have to take it in it's order as written.

[Fallguy]

Actually, the oath also says ... "and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me"

True...got focused on the bold part.

you are correct. But A military person has the right to refuse any order that they feel to be illegal. Once again when looking at the oath you have to take it in it's order as written.

+1

[Guest canynracer]

Actually, the oath also says ... "and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me"

Yeah, but isnt that only if the orders comply with the Constitution? I mean, they did put the Constitution part FIRST in the oath...

right?

[Guest mustangdave]

you are correct. But A military person has the right to refuse any order that they feel to be illegal. Once again when looking at the oath you have to take it in it's order as written.

Having the right to "refuse" to follow an "order"...is a pretty tricky area...the term in the UCMJ is "LAWFUL ORDER" and what is deemed a lawful order can sometimes diametrically oppose ones "belief" as to whether the order given is LEGAL or ILLEGAL...in instances I have seen...UNIT order and discipline TRUMPED the individuals right to REFUSE to follow and or obey an order...in most cases the individual was Article 15'd

[Guest GT_Rat]

Actually, the oath also says ... "and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me"

But it says to Defend the Constitution FIRST. If the Presidents or Officers appointed above me give orders counter to that it is my DUTY to not obey them.

You can't just FEEL the order is illegal you have to KNOW it is because you are going to have to defend yourself at court-martial at the minimum.

[Guest mustangdave]

What I think is being left out here is the last sentence... "according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice." Military LAW is a tic or two different from everyday civil law...not to mention those "regulations"...and those can even vary by branch of service. As I am given to understand it...a member of the military obeys the order given..FIRST...then IF its UNLAWFUL/ILLEGAL...he questions it. Your DUTY is to OBEY...to DISOBEY can bring about negative reprecussions

[Guest GT_Rat]

a member of the military obeys the order given..FIRST...then IF its UNLAWFUL/ILLEGAL...he questions it. Your DUTY is to OBEY...to DISOBEY can bring about negative reprecussions

No you don't and no it's not. Your duty is first to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, second to obey the orders of the President and the officers appointed above you, and you are required to do those things according to the rules set forth in the UCMJ. If you KNOW an order is unlawful you are within your right to refuse to obey it. Obeying the order when you know it is unlawful makes you just as culpable as the person giving the order. Doing your duty often has negative repercussions but that doesn't make you any less obligated to do it. Every war we've been involved in has resulted in men coming home in caskets as a result of doing their duty.

[Guest mustangdave]

I don't want to split hairs...we'll have to agree to disagree here. I'll assume you were in the military.

Edited March 20, 2009 by mustangdave
I retract the military snip...my apologies

[Guest Linoge]

Interesting semantical quibble (and I am not sure if this holds true for all branches, but I am pretty sure it did in the Navy - my memory is already fuzzy (how sad is that?)):

Officer's oath:

I, ____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

Enlisted Oath:

I, ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the president of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Where am I going with this? Nowhere, really, just pointing out something that some people may not know, and others may have forgotten.

[Guest GT_Rat]

I don't want to split hairs...we'll have to agree to disagree here. I'll assume you were in the military.

I didn't see the "military snip" that your edit reason refers to but I'll leave it at that. Yes I was in the Navy.

[Fallguy]

I really didn't mean to start anything about the exact wording of the oath. the UCMJ or the like.

It just seemed to me that some where trying to remind others, the military could/would be used against domestic enemies. So I was just trying to say IMO those that may oppose operations of the government are not necessarily automatically domestic enemies by the standards of the constitution.

[Guest mustangdave]

FALLGUY...I think that when/if...SHTF...and I pray we come to our collective senses before it does. I think we'll all be surprized at who will be standing up for the Constitution...

[Fallguy]

FALLGUY...I think that when/if...SHTF...and I pray we come to our collective senses before it does. I think we'll all be surprized at who will be standing up for the Constitution...

I hope so...on both accounts.

Believe me...I am not stocking up on ammo, getting a bunch of tinfoil or looking for a group of guys in the woods to join up with.

I just think things could be much better and they have been going down hill long before Jan 20, 2009 or Nov 11, 2008.