New ATF rules dropped today.

[Chucktshoes]

I’m reading through and digesting it now. 
 

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/definition-frame-or-receiver

[Johnny Rotten]

FJB

[FUJIMO]

Unless I'm reading it wrong (and I hope I am) doesn't it now classify "parts kits" as firearms making them an item to be transferred ?

[m16ty]

I skimmed it. One thing that stuck out is they are claiming over 45,000 "ghost guns" were recovered from crime scenes since 2016. That number seems awfully high. If we do take that number at face value, somebody has to be building guns on the black market without serial numbers and selling them on the street. There is no way there are that many John Does out there building guns in their garage and going out and committing crimes. I would also submit that if there are high volume manufacturers building guns for the black market, these new rules will do nothing to stop it. 

Other than that, the rest of it reads awfully confusing, and will require more time to weed though. Just skimming it, I get the feeling that they are fixing to try to regulate a whole lot more than the lower receiver on something like a AR. Talk about a nightmare if they do that.

Edited April 11, 2022 by m16ty

[Snaveba]

I’m just waiting for one of you guys who understand reading these things better than me to summarize it for the rest of us. 

[OldIronFan]

16 minutes ago, m16ty said:

If we do take that number at face value, somebody has to be building guns on the black market without serial numbers and selling them on the street. 
I would also submit that if there are high volume manufacturers building guns for the black market, these new rules will do nothing to stop it. 

I also believe this to be the case. I read a comment thread on a popular AR building discussion board regarding the original poster seeing a table at a gun show where a non licensed (no FFL) seller had a table full of completed weapons built on completed 80% lowers. When he was asked about it he claimed that it was perfectly legal for him to sell them despite the fact that he was clearly doing it as a for profit venture. This was followed by multiple posters claiming they had seem similar sellers at gun shows in a number of areas. Several of the posters confirmed these accounts by claiming they were at the same show and saw the same sellers. 
If there were a handful of accounts of this happening out in the open at a gun show you can bet there is far more of it going on on the "street". 

I have been asked multiple times to complete 80% lowers and build complete weapons from them for individuals once they found out I had the machining capability to do it. Those inquiries normally came from people without knowledge of the laws regarding 80% receiver builds and usually sprouted from random conversations at the range. Usually off hand comments when checking out one of my builds along the lines of "so how much would you charge me to build one for me?". I am absolutely positive there are plenty of builders out there who would throw out a dollar figure in response rather than turn them down as I do. 

[RED333]

3 hours ago, Snaveba said:

I’m just waiting for one of you guys who understand reading these things better than me to summarize it for the rest of us. 

These 2 do a good job,

 

[m16ty]

Ok, they looking at making the upper a firearm also. I have a few machine guns, none of witch have the original uppers. If I put a new upper on a registered machine gun lower, have I just made a unregistered machine gun?

Lots of the rule is bad, but this is the worst.

Forget 80% lowers, I’m going to need to find a source for 80% uppers.

Edited April 12, 2022 by m16ty

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, m16ty said:

Ok, they looking at making the upper a firearm also. I have a few machine guns, none of witch have the original uppers. If I put a new upper on a registered machine gun lower, have I just made a unregistered machine gun?

Lots of the rule is bad, but this is the worst.

Forget 80% lowers, I’m going to need to find a source for 80% uppers.

No, a firearm will have only a single part declared as the serialized part and all previously determined firearms will stand as is. The lower receiver on an AR, the upper on an FAL or 91.  A new design brought to market will have to have the ATF declare what is to be the serialized part. That was unclear in the summary, but laid out very clearly in the text of the rules. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Chucktshoes

[TGO David]

This is your regular reminder that elections have consequences.

[deerslayer]

14 hours ago, m16ty said:

I skimmed it. One thing that stuck out is they are claiming over 45,000 "ghost guns" were recovered from crime scenes since 2016. That number seems awfully high. If we do take that number at face value, somebody has to be building guns on the black market without serial numbers and selling them on the street.

I was also a bit skeptical of their numbers. 
 

I do wonder how long it will be before someone blames this on Trump due to the precedent he supposedly set with the bump stock fiasco.  This administration has already demonstrated that it doesn’t care about a precedent.  Issue an edict and maybe the courts will overturn it in a few months, maybe not. 

[Garufa]

1 hour ago, deerslayer said:

I do wonder how long it will be before someone blames this on Trump

The stats being quoted only go back to 2016, therefore it is obvious Trump invented ghost guns. 

[DraxTheDad]

Let us not forget that the ATF raided Ghost Gunners and Polymer80 a few months back.   Want to bet those were all counted as well.

They are also counting every "ghost gun" as a gun without a serial number, so any stolen gun, or private party purchased gun with the serial number filed off is a "ghost gun".

 

[btq96r]

17 hours ago, OldIronFan said:

I also believe this to be the case. I read a comment thread on a popular AR building discussion board regarding the original poster seeing a table at a gun show where a non licensed (no FFL) seller had a table full of completed weapons built on completed 80% lowers. When he was asked about it he claimed that it was perfectly legal for him to sell them despite the fact that he was clearly doing it as a for profit venture. This was followed by multiple posters claiming they had seem similar sellers at gun shows in a number of areas. Several of the posters confirmed these accounts by claiming they were at the same show and saw the same sellers. 
If there were a handful of accounts of this happening out in the open at a gun show you can bet there is far more of it going on on the "street". 

I have been asked multiple times to complete 80% lowers and build complete weapons from them for individuals once they found out I had the machining capability to do it. Those inquiries normally came from people without knowledge of the laws regarding 80% receiver builds and usually sprouted from random conversations at the range. Usually off hand comments when checking out one of my builds along the lines of "so how much would you charge me to build one for me?". I am absolutely positive there are plenty of builders out there who would throw out a dollar figure in response rather than turn them down as I do. 

I'm always skeptical of numbers the government throws out, but I can absolutely see the logic in what you're describing here.  Plenty of entrepreneurial initiative meets loose ethics potential in the country.

I know 45,000 seems like a large number, and in abstract, it is.  But in 2020, guns were flying off the shelves.  Some reports as many as 23 million were sold.  So, it's not hard to imagine that 0.20% of that number could be added on in "ghost guns" from various sources nationwide.  The equipment and technical know how is abundant enough. 

[peejman]

8 minutes ago, btq96r said:

I'm always skeptical of numbers the government throws out, but I can absolutely see the logic in what you're describing here.  Plenty of entrepreneurial initiative meets loose ethics potential in the country.

I know 45,000 seems like a large number, and in abstract, it is.  But in 2020, guns were flying off the shelves.  Some reports as many as 23 million were sold.  So, it's not hard to imagine that 0.20% of that number could be added on in "ghost guns" from various sources nationwide.  The equipment and technical know how is abundant enough. 

Yep.  If there are 45k unserialized guns being used in crimes, how many serialized guns are used?  Of those, how many were legally purchased by the perp and how many were stolen?  

[deerslayer]

30 minutes ago, btq96r said:

I'm always skeptical of numbers the government throws out, but I can absolutely see the logic in what you're describing here.  Plenty of entrepreneurial initiative meets loose ethics potential in the country.

I know 45,000 seems like a large number, and in abstract, it is.  But in 2020, guns were flying off the shelves.  Some reports as many as 23 million were sold.  So, it's not hard to imagine that 0.20% of that number could be added on in "ghost guns" from various sources nationwide.  The equipment and technical know how is abundant enough. 

Right, but the claim is the 45000 were RECOVERED, not merely MANUFACTURED.  

[btq96r]

17 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

Right, but the claim is the 45000 were RECOVERED, not merely MANUFACTURED.  

You can times that number by 5 and you still only have a 1/100 ratio of manufactured ghost guns to sold guns. 

I don't think it's so absurd as to be instantly dismissed.  The capacity for production is out there, and we've had a wonky few years where economic incentive was ripe.

[OldIronFan]

57 minutes ago, btq96r said:

I'm always skeptical of numbers the government throws out, but I can absolutely see the logic in what you're describing here.  Plenty of entrepreneurial initiative meets loose ethics potential in the country.

That entrepreneurial initiative is exactly what drove the creation of the 80% market. There has been multiple fairly large and profitable business ventures based almost exclusively on 80% receivers. Back when I started machining AR lowers from raw forgings (what came to be called 20% receivers) there were no readily available 80% receivers and certainly no easy jigs that would tooling kits that would let you finish the work with a common wood working trim router. Then you get into the Polymer 80 craze. No one fronted the money for the tooling to produce those if they did not expect a significant profit on the back end. 

The 80% market exploded and it was made "easy" for the common handy person to complete one. The entrepreneurs created the reality that the ATF is fighting back against now. The same thing is happening with Form 1 suppressor kits. There was a legal avenue to produce and register your own suppressor. Entrepreneurs saw a completely legal window of opportunity to create products that while incomplete/non functioning could be completed by the end user easily. 

It is really no surprise that a percentage (debatable how large) did not care about the legalities of ATF form 1 submissions and purchased their products with zero intention of every following those laws. It is also no surprise that some people see and 80% receiver and related parts kits as a way to produce firearms for profit or for illegal markets regardless of the laws. 

[btq96r]

3 hours ago, OldIronFan said:

Then you get into the Polymer 80 craze. No one fronted the money for the tooling to produce those if they did not expect a significant profit on the back end. 

Judging by the level of emails I got about sales on the Polymer 80s, it just rang that the whole concept was a big money grab probably backed with a lot of VC money looking for a good return given how quick things materialized.  And I get it...gun owners spend well, don't see firearms purchases as wasting disposable income for the most part, and boy do we love a perceived loophole to ATF shenanigans.

[Dustbuster]

45000.... nah, prob more like 45. If your holding an ice cream cone, u can get brandon to read anything.in this case,they got him to read gun grab bs off the etch a sketch....what a concept, give away money, get the sheep to follow,make them believe there is no wolf, then pull their teeth so they cant bite back. so glad so many of us righteously  served so a moron led by pelosi and feinsteins could become king. the question is: what are we gonna do about it? and enforcement by an agency that could never beat outlaw m/c clubs or completely annihilate a church in waco's followers? 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Dustbuster

[Alleycat72]

[Alleycat72]

I hope there are 4.5 million in circulation. 

[m16ty]

23 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

No, a firearm will have only a single part declared as the serialized part and all previously determined firearms will stand as is. The lower receiver on an AR, the upper on an FAL or 91.  A new design brought to market will have to have the ATF declare what is to be the serialized part. That was unclear in the summary, but laid out very clearly in the text of the rules. 

Thanks for the clarification. That isn't nowhere near as bad.

[m16ty]

10 hours ago, CylonGlitch said:

Let us not forget that the ATF raided Ghost Gunners and Polymer80 a few months back.   Want to bet those were all counted as well.

They are also counting every "ghost gun" as a gun without a serial number, so any stolen gun, or private party purchased gun with the serial number filed off is a "ghost gun".

 

Maybe so, but the text says "guns recovered from crime scenes". I guess when the raided the places, since they considered them building illegal firearms, they could make the stretch that it was a crime scene. You know how they like to twist the facts.

On the topic of "ghost guns" what will now constitute a firearm, I mean where do they stop. Is it going to get to the point that you can have a illegal firearm if you have a chunk of aluminum lying around? 

Edited April 13, 2022 by m16ty

[Erik88]

So what happens next? I feel like this is the 4th or 5th time I've heard how the ATF is trying to pull some shenanigans and then nothing comes of it after they catch a bunch of grief about it. 

Can they even change laws? Wasn't that the debate last time?