Mostly a rant

[JustEd]

Am sooo tired of buying a new handgun, mostly small 9's, only to find out that they are sighted to a combat hold.  For me, the poi should be directly on top of the front sight rather than under the white dot on it.  That's the way 1911's on most revolvers are.  The combat hold makes it difficult for me to see what you are shooting if plinking small stuff.

When my Austrian instructor first showed me this sighting method decades ago, I thought he was joking.  He claimed it was a natural sight picture in a defensive encounter.  Now it has become almost standard on micro or sub compact 9's.  AND I DON"T LIKE IT 

Yes there are aftermarket sights, but in my experience they usually are sighted the same as the manufacturers.  Glock makes adjustable or just higher rear sights, but not every dovetail fits Glock sights.  And no, I don't like filing down my front sight to a nub.

On a bright note, my little Ruger LCPII 380 puts shots right on top of the front blade as it should.  Went through a 50 round box of WWB yesterday at ORSA and it reliably plinked steel at 30 feet. Not so much at 60 feet, but that's a combination of me and the short sight radius.

 

End of Rant

 

ps:  Combat hold most recently encountered on Sig P320, P365, Hellcat, M&P.  My Taurus G3c uses Glock sights so was able to change out the rear on it.

[TGO David]

I think you are maybe overlooking the obvious:  Small handguns are designed and intended for "combat" purposes.  They aren't designed with the bullseye plinker in mind.

 

[xtriggerman]

Coincidence! I was shooting my new to me Ruger LCP II yesterday and had the same results. I hold level with half the target covered and the Ruger was hammering the dead center. Ruger gets it with this little pop gun out of the box.

[gregintenn]

I agree with JustEd. If I do my part, I like to be rewarded with a round hole in the target, sitting directly on the top of where the front sight was. Handgun manufacturers have been able to reliably make this happen for centuries now.

[Chucktshoes]

Here’s where I admit that I didn’t realize that there was anything other than the combat sighting.  

[JustEd]

[JustEd]

2 hours ago, xtriggerman said:

Coincidence! I was shooting my new to me Ruger LCP II yesterday and had the same results. I hold level with half the target covered and the Ruger was hammering the dead center. Ruger gets it with this little pop gun out of the box.

I love mine for many reasons. That is but one of them

Spoiler, just spent 900+ on a Hellcat, modify cut, mount Holosun and Apex trigger job. Like carrying the LCP II more

[deerslayer]

I didn’t check their site to see if any are available for the guns you mentioned, but Dawson Precision makes front and rear sights and sight sets with lots of options.  A shorter front sight is cheap and would fix your problem.  
 

https://dawsonprecision.com/gun-sights/

[peejman]

I also don't like obscuring the target with the sights. Pumpkin on a fence post is how my rifles are sighted.  I typically shoot handguns as center hold as shown above, maybe that's why my usual miss is low? I  always thought I was anticipating recoil. 

[Choatecav]

3 hours ago, JustEd said:

JustEd, to make sure I am clearly understanding you, are you wanting the 6 o'clock hold or the Center hold??

Personally, I would want the Center hold.

[derf]

You should test drive a Shadow Systems. It’s everything a Glock ain’t and it points like a 1911. 

[chances R]

 should be shooting a 'dot' problem solved   If shooting combat, not going to be making that fine sight alignment at social distances, so really a mute point.  Otherwise, the manufacturers can please some of the people some of the time.....

[JustEd]

3 hours ago, deerslayer said:

I didn’t check their site to see if any are available for the guns you mentioned, but Dawson Precision makes front and rear sights and sight sets with lots of options.  A shorter front sight is cheap and would fix your problem.  
 

https://dawsonprecision.com/gun-sights/

Yep their good, but mostly fiber optic sights. They also don't have different height sights for guns like the p365 and newer models.  Last time I checked anyway. 

[JustEd]

1 hour ago, Choatecav said:

JustEd, to make sure I am clearly understanding you, are you wanting the 6 o'clock hold or the Center hold??

Personally, I would want the Center hold.

Center hold. Six o’clock is what we used for bullseye match shooting in the last century (humor intended). 

[Choatecav]

1 hour ago, JustEd said:

Center hold. Six o’clock is what we used for bullseye match shooting in the last century (humor intended). 

Thanks.

I completely agree.

[pop pop]

I prefer center hold also.  Just front sight blade for close and if in a hurry. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Choatecav said:

Thanks.

I completely agree.

So do I, now that JustEd cleared that up. 6 o’clock is fine for round targets if known size at a known distance, but center hold along with properly zeroed sights is for carry/combat. That last choice? “Combat Hold” ?  That’s no good…

[Swang]

As said earlier defensive shooting vs target shooting. I am getting more into red dots that can be adjusted to your own intricacies.

No disrespect to the traditionalist iron site type, get your points also.

[JustEd]

No problem at all Swang.  I have red dots on three handguns.  Love 'em but only one is for carry.  

The Hellcat with Holosun plinks steel like crazy.   However, I am not fully enamored about the extra bulk/reliability/speed issues that can come from a dot.  It's a transition to be sure and practice makes better.  However,...whadda ya gonna use but the iron sights if the dot fails.  If iron sights only on a defensive gun, one doesn't worry about them fogging up.

 

Just my opinion, appreciate your input.

[bobsguns]

JustEd, have you tried different bullet weights? When I shoot a Beretta 92Fs, I have to use 115gr ammo if I want a 6 o'clock hold. I use 124gr if I want a center of mass hold. It's a lot easier than changing sights.

I agree with you on this issue as well. 

[JustEd]

It's a good point and thanks. 

While I have seen some guns which are particularly ammo sensitive, in my experience the shift between 115 and 124 is usually not that much.  In the specific guns cited a simple change in bullet weight was not enough to make an appreciable difference at 15 yards. 

Also have many thousand rounds of 115 and 124 gr factory and reload which shoot fine and not about to buy more.

 

Thanks though, it is a phenomena some pistols show more than others.

 

[JustEd]

Bit by my own rant.

 

Have had a couple of Sig 1911's and love them both.  They shoot to the proper point of aim. 

Just got back a slide on my 2017 vintage commander style sig 1911.   Had them replace the front sight as the tritium dot was burnt out.  Specifically told them not to replace it if they didn't have the same height front sight,  Well, they put a taller one on because combat is how they sight them now...according to customer service.

 

When I pointed out how this differed from my instructions the CS agent said he didn't want to hear about center hold vs combat hold.  He said they way they do it now is the way it is. 

 

There goes a nice 1911 once used for pinking steel.    Should a just kept the old sight as it is used mostly in daytime.

[xtriggerman]

Wow, So they didn't have the time to side line the gun untill they notified you of a change like that? That really sucks. I would write a letter to the CEO there and explain that. Thats just flat out wrong. They need to butter you up with something nice to straighten this out. 

[bobsguns]

4 hours ago, JustEd said:

When I pointed out how this differed from my instructions the CS agent said he didn't want to hear about center hold vs combat hold.  He said they way they do it now is the way it is. 

 

At that point *I* would've reached through my phone & introduced him to one of my boot camp DI's! 

You NEVER tell a customer "you don't want to hear about" something!!!!!! Ho Lee Schitt!!!!!! Who does he think he is, H&K?????   

[deerslayer]

4 hours ago, JustEd said:

When I pointed out how this differed from my instructions the CS agent said he didn't want to hear about center hold vs combat hold.  He said they way they do it now is the way it is. 

Wow.  Sounds like the drive-thru nowadays - “Here’s 8 bucks.  Just give me what you think I need”