Police Handling of Mentally Ill

[peejman]

1 hour ago, bersaguy said:

How many folks here thought that guy that opened fire in that theater in Colorado during the Bat Man premier thought he was crazy? All of his planning before and after the shooting show careful thought right up to an including wiring his apartment with explosives and making sure he was dressed in full body armor  and made sure he hit the only  gun free theater in that town? His attorney declared him mentally ill and unfit when the trial began and was his only defense. Does a mentally disturbed person go through that type of planning to commit a crime like that? 

Sociopathy is a mental illness. 

[Grunt67]

Standard procedure for a Defense atty to go for mentally incompetent when he has nothing else to hang his hat on. With that much painstaking prep, he was playing with a full deck.

Personally,  it doesn't matter to me if he was nuttier than a fruit cake, get the same punishment as anyone else.

If you can't do the time,  don't do the crime.

JMO

[bobsguns]

6 hours ago, bersaguy said:

Does a mentally disturbed person go through that type of planning to commit a crime like that? 

I think so.

Being crazy doesn't necessarily mean stupid. Theodore John Kaczynski is a perfect example of that, IMO. 

[Chucktshoes]

12 minutes ago, bobsguns said:

I think so.

Being crazy doesn't necessarily mean stupid. Theodore John Kaczynski is a perfect example of that, IMO. 

I would actually disagree with your assessment of uncle Ted being crazy. I think the more accurate term is prescient.

[bobsguns]

29 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

I would actually disagree with your assessment of uncle Ted being crazy. I think the more accurate term is prescient.

Anyone whom harms innocent people is not, or ever will be considered "sane" in my world. YMMV.

[Capbyrd]

1 hour ago, bobsguns said:

Anyone whom harms innocent people is not, or ever will be considered "sane" in my world. YMMV.

does this apply to the men who dropped bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

[E4 No More]

One should note that "innocent by reason of insanity" is a severe form of insanity in that the person must be found to NOT understand what reality is around them. An insane person can & do commit crimes while understanding the reality. Planning is one of those things that demonstrates that the person is understanding of reality.

[bersaguy]

I have a belief that a person could be insane if they truly do not know the difference between right and wrong at all. These people that can carefully plan a crime and then carry out that crime are not insane but just plain EVIL. All serial killers are sane as they carefully plan each crime and carry it out with precision. That is why they are so hard to catch.....JMHO

[Grayfox54]

23 hours ago, bersaguy said:

Does a mentally disturbed person go through that type of planning to commit a crime like that? 

Don't confuse crazy with stupid. Many crazy people are perfectly capable of serious and intricate planning of what they want to accomplish. Its their motives that are insane. But also bear in mind that their motives make perfect sense to them.  

[Grayfox54]

Is it just me or does it seem that Americans today just aren't as tough mentally as the older generations? I'm talking mostly the under 30 crowd, but some older folks as well. 

When I was a kid, (1950s/60s) we were taught right from the start that life is hard. You gotta learn to deal with it. Not everybody made the team, you don't get trophies just for being there and you had to punch the bully in the nose to get him to leave you alone. 

It seems to me that many Americans were over protected as kids. They weren't allowed to experience failure. But the truth is that failure is the best teacher. Then one day they were thrown out into the real world and SURPRISE! They suddenly realize that they aren't special. In fact, almost nobody gives a #### about them! And most of all they come to the realization that you're completely on your own. 

Is it any wonder that when life poops on them that they can't handle it? I really think this is why we see so much mental illness in the general population these days. They were never properly prepared for the real world and many of them cracked under the strain.  

I'm interested in your thought on the subject. 

[E4 No More]

2 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Is it just me or does it seem that Americans today just aren't as tough mentally as the older generations? I'm talking mostly the under 30 crowd, but some older folks as well. 

When I was a kid, (1950s/60s) we were taught right from the start that life is hard. You gotta learn to deal with it. Not everybody made the team, you don't get trophies just for being there and you had to punch the bully in the nose to get him to leave you alone. 

It seems to me that many Americans were over protected as kids. They weren't allowed to experience failure. But the truth is that failure is the best teacher. Then one day they were thrown out into the real world and SURPRISE! They suddenly realize that they aren't special. In fact, almost nobody gives a #### about them! And most of all they come to the realization that you're completely on your own. 

Is it any wonder that when life poops on them that they can't handle it? I really think this is why we see so much mental illness in the general population these days. They were never properly prepared for the real world and many of them cracked under the strain.  

I'm interested in your thought on the subject. 

I don't think it's JUST the way they are raised. We get bombarded by more and more bad chemicals in our environment than ever before. I'm not talking just about things like drugs, but also in our water, food, air and soil. I think that disrupts our natural development in ways that are not understood, or understood and kept from us by those seeking profits.

[Capbyrd]

4 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Is it just me or does it seem that Americans today just aren't as tough mentally as the older generations? I'm talking mostly the under 30 crowd, but some older folks as well. 

When I was a kid, (1950s/60s) we were taught right from the start that life is hard. You gotta learn to deal with it. Not everybody made the team, you don't get trophies just for being there and you had to punch the bully in the nose to get him to leave you alone. 

It seems to me that many Americans were over protected as kids. They weren't allowed to experience failure. But the truth is that failure is the best teacher. Then one day they were thrown out into the real world and SURPRISE! They suddenly realize that they aren't special. In fact, almost nobody gives a #### about them! And most of all they come to the realization that you're completely on your own. 

Is it any wonder that when life poops on them that they can't handle it? I really think this is why we see so much mental illness in the general population these days. They were never properly prepared for the real world and many of them cracked under the strain.  

I'm interested in your thought on the subject. 

There is some truth to that but it's an oversimplification.   There is some wisdom to be gleaned from the "hard times create tough men, tough men create good times and good times create weak men" statement.  That's part of what you are saying. 

The other side is that we have a better understanding of mental illness and how it affects people.  A great example of this is the female orgasm.  At one point, that was considered hysteria and an affliction.  But science advanced and we developed a better understanding of things. 

This doesn't discount the problems with society like dependencies on meds and dietary issues and stuff like that.  Just pointing out that it isn't as simple as saying people today lack toughness. 

[bobsguns]

5 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Is it just me or does it seem that Americans today just aren't as tough mentally as the older generations? I'm talking mostly the under 30 crowd, but some older folks as well. 

LMAO!!!!

You have to ponder this?

Allow me to list just a few of the changes.

1) Kids today (including college) have to have "safe spaces". This means no "mean" words. Doesn't mean the words are actually "mean", just that a kid believes they are.

2) Kids have to be told to NOT eat the Tide Pods. Seriously? What next? Don't stick one's tongue inside an empty lamp socket & turn it on?

3) No dodge ball, tag or any other "old" games on the playground. Seemingly it deflates their self-esteem when they become "it" in a game.

4) Obesity is a pandemic. In the mid- to late 1960s I could count the "fat" kids in my entire grade on one hand & have several fingers left over. Now it's the opposite: count the number of non-fat kids on one hand & have fingers left over.

5) Teens would have a shotgun or .22 rifle in their gun racks while at school in the 1960s. Some hunted before school, some would hunt after school, some would shoot mistletoe from the tops of trees & sell it. No one EVER thought about shooting up a school!

6) No kid was on meds. None. Now, you have Attention deficient disorder & they take Ritalin. Anxiety promotes Zantac or some such thing. (Studies also show every single school shooter was on some sort of anxiety med. Look it up.)

7) We got many paddlings by the teachers (gym/shop teachers were the worst!) or the principal & then went back to class. No fuss, no muss. Now it's a "time out" or in-school suspension, neither of which do squat. Now, a principal paddles a kid, Children's Services shuts the school down & the principal is hauled off in leg irons.

8 ) A good 1/4 of the guys in my school took some sort of shop class. We were blessed with a good shop program. Offerings were carpentry, electronics, HVAC, machine shop, auto repair, auto body & welding. Construction trades (brickwork) too. They knew not everyone wanted or were cut out for college. Now, it's go to college or you're a failure.

9) Haven't seen a kid change his own tire in over 20 years. They don't know where the spare is nor how to work the jack.

10) Kids in a Massachusetts school "identify" as cats. No BS, true story. So the school put down litter boxes in the restrooms. Schitt thee I not.

11) A kid today says "I am not a male, I am a female" & they get to use the female restroom. Never mind he has a penis, that's overlooked. This has resulted in at least one sexual assault in VA, possibly more that was covered up by the local school board. Look it up.

12) While I won't go into the whole points/timing/dwell thing on a car engine as they're no longer used, but I know grown men whom cannot change their own oil. Grown............... Men............... I began doing my own at 16 & have continued that to this day 47 years later. Heaven forbid they change their coolant, spark plugs or brake pads. They're clueless, completely. 

I weep for their future. They'll be made to speak Chinese, IMO. 

[bobsguns]

5 hours ago, E4 No More said:

I don't think it's JUST the way they are raised. We get bombarded by more and more bad chemicals in our environment than ever before. I'm not talking just about things like drugs, but also in our water, food, air and soil. I think that disrupts our natural development in ways that are not understood, or understood and kept from us by those seeking profits.

All true.

Look at peanut allergies. Widely found these days, wholly unheard of prior to (say) 2000. MSG, gluten, all sorts of allergies these days. Dementia is seemingly 100 times worse than it was when I was a kid. 

[Erik88]

On 2/1/2022 at 10:41 PM, Capbyrd said:

does this apply to the men who dropped bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

We don't have to go back that far. How many innocent people have we killed in the middle east the last 20 years? Just last night we did a raid in Syria where women and kids were killed. 

 

https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/us-forces-launch-raid-in-syria-civilians-also-reported-dead/

[Grunt67]

Looks like the thread has left the rails.

[chances R]

sure why not?  The police need to be a psychologist, Martial arts specialist, EMT, firefighter, Xpert marksman, stunt driver, friend, father, husband, role-

model, excellent swimmer, and leap tall buildings in a single bound....all while being shot at, spit-on, bitten, stabbed, punched, objects thrown at, eyes lasered, cursed, and having every move critique and reviewed on instant replay with the threat of being sued, jailed, loss of job, losing everything you own, and,  your kids/family'furture for about 45K/yr.

[RED333]

2 hours ago, chances R said:

sure why not?  The police need to be a psychologist, Martial arts specialist, EMT, firefighter, Xpert marksman, stunt driver, friend, father, husband, role-

model, excellent swimmer, and leap tall buildings in a single bound....all while being shot at, spit-on, bitten, stabbed, punched, objects thrown at, eyes lasered, cursed, and having every move critique and reviewed on instant replay with the threat of being sued, jailed, loss of job, losing everything you own, and,  your kids/family'furture for about 45K/yr.

We do ask a lot of them for what little they do get paid.

[Capbyrd]

3 hours ago, chances R said:

 for about 45K/yr.

 

I don’t think there is a single cop in this city that makes only 45k a year.  They are paid better than that. 

[Omega]

13 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

 

I don’t think there is a single cop in this city that makes only 45k a year.  They are paid better than that. 

Yea, that invalidates the whole statement. 

[Capbyrd]

43 minutes ago, Omega said:

Yea, that invalidates the whole statement. 

Cops always complain about how much they make but they are never honest about it.  Most of the cops around here that I know have routinely received w2s for six figures.   They make better money than the majority of the city does. 

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of hearing how underpaid they are.  They aren't.  They volunteered themselves to do that exact job usually for less money than they currently make.   They aren't victims when it comes to money. 

If you want to have an honest conversation about what they are tasked with daily, lets do that.  But money doesn't need to be involved in that conversation. 

[Omega]

1 hour ago, Capbyrd said:

Cops always complain about how much they make but they are never honest about it.  Most of the cops around here that I know have routinely received w2s for six figures.   They make better money than the majority of the city does. 

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of hearing how underpaid they are.  They aren't.  They volunteered themselves to do that exact job usually for less money than they currently make.   They aren't victims when it comes to money. 

If you want to have an honest conversation about what they are tasked with daily, lets do that.  But money doesn't need to be involved in that conversation. 

Sure.

Country

Memphis.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Omega
Add Info

[Capbyrd]

1 hour ago, Omega said:

Sure.

Country

Memphis.

Again, that’s base salary and nowhere close to the number on their W2 at the end of the year.  I will never concede that they are just woefully underpaid as to be poor.  Sorry.  That’s not the world that I live in. 

[MrsMonkeyMan2500]

Police handling of mentally ill.

Bottom line: 9 officers against 1 man with a box cutter. Take away 1 officer for the off duty Mt. Juliet officer because he didn't have his vest nor his duty belt (I'm assuming). So we're down to 6 MNPD and 2 THP against 1 man with a box cutter. Watching the incident video, I truly believed they tried. However, I need to know why no one stopped and said "Hey, we have rubber bullets and tasers, we should try non-lethal force". It blows my mind that was not an option. If you know he is suffering from a mental break, cut the man some slack and try non lethal first. The majority of the officers had 5+ years and I cannot find a reason why it came down to all 9 officers firing their guns.

I worked at Home Depot for 6 years and constantly used a box cutter. As an accident prone person, I can honestly say even with a sharp one fully extended, they would have been fine. Nothing super glue can't fix. Trust me, I've done it several times to avoid filing workers comp. MNPD has an issue with their response to calls like this. 

The decommissioned officer, well he deserves jail time. 2 rifle rounds after the mans body was on the ground? Yeah. Jail.

[bobsguns]

1 hour ago, MrsMonkeyMan2500 said:

However, I need to know why no one stopped and said "Hey, we have rubber bullets and tasers, we should try non-lethal force". It blows my mind that was not an option. If you know he is suffering from a mental break, cut the man some slack and try non lethal first. 

I worked at Home Depot for 6 years and constantly used a box cutter. As an accident prone person, I can honestly say even with a sharp one fully extended, they would have been fine. Nothing super glue can't fix. 

Did you read the entire thread?

Taser wasn't an option as he had on clothing that prevented the taser probes from attaching to his body. This isn't tv or NICS. Nor does the average police officer carry "rubber bullets". Seriously?

Good for you & your cut hands with your box cutter. Now allow yourself to go wrestle with an insane person who now has just cut your throat with one. How's that crazy glue gonna work on that? 

While I agree 100% he never should've been shot, my reasons are wholly different from yours.