Police Handling of Mentally Ill

[pop pop]

I am sure some have seen the Metro Nashville released Police body cam film of the mentally Ill guy shot on the interstate this week. What do you guys think about the Police problem with dealing with the Mentally ill, and how best to handle it. 

Looks to  me like society is going to demand for the Police to have some new training, and a new policy on how  to handle these cases.  IMO, they are in a catch 22 situation (in trouble either way they go) with their present policy when dealing with this problem connected to the mentally ill situation.  

Edited January 29, 2022 by pop pop

[gregintenn]

I’m not sure why mentally ill is freely roaming around in public.

[pop pop]

Mentally Ill were turned out, years ago in TN, when they closed all the State Run facilities. They did that because of all the law suites which took 20 years to settle all of them. I think all the states did the same, so there are few facilities to house them.

So now the Police are faced with dealing with them on the streets, basically. 

Dealing with the mentally ill is not an easy thing to do. 

[gregintenn]

6 minutes ago, pop pop said:

Mentally Ill were turned out, years ago in TN, when they closed all the State Run facilities. They did that because of all the law suites which took 20 years to settle all of them. I think all the states did the same, so there are few facilities to house them.

So now the Police are faced with dealing with them on the streets, basically. 

Dealing with the mentally ill is not an easy thing to do. 

Right. This needs changing.

[OLDNEWBIE]

Catch 22 situation is absolutely spot on!

Effective non-lethal needs to be used in anticipation, prior to crazy hurting himself or others. Progressives would argue this is stepping on his rights, humiliating and degrading or even risking physical harm for something the crazy "might do".

Like he "might" have a loaded gun down in his pocket where his hand is. Like he might start blasting it at innocent bystanders. 

Officers are at risk of jail time if optics or outcome isn't to the public's liking.

Alternatively you wait and see with guns drawn while trying to reason with a man who nobody else up to that point has successfully reasoned with. Wait and see if he does have a loaded gun in his pocket. If it is just a pipe he draws and points at them well.....

Officers risk jail time if optics or outcome isn't to the public's liking.

Classic Catch 22.

[Alleycat72]

Crazy people can kill you just as easily as a sane person. I have seen "the mentality ill" get less mentality ill when a firearm comes out. It's safer for a homeless person to be perceived as crazy in the streets. Less likely to be pray however there are some truly crazy MFers I've encountered. Dude with a machete wanting to cut a guy's hands off for stealing comes to mind. 

[bobsguns]

6 hours ago, gregintenn said:

I’m not sure why mentally ill is freely roaming around in public.

Because courts ruled against forced institutionizing them in the late 1970s. As long as they're not endangering anyone, they're GTG. 

[Grunt67]

MNPD has some units with mental health professionals attached. This response was not one of them.

[Garufa]

Much of the “defund the police” movement is to get more social worker types and others properly trained in dealing with mentals on the street.  How that is supposed to work is anyone’s guess because they’re going to need an armed escort.

[Omega]

46 minutes ago, Garufa said:

Much of the “defund the police” movement is to get more social worker types and others properly trained in dealing with mentals on the street.  How that is supposed to work is anyone’s guess because they’re going to need an armed escort.

Exactly like this:

https://nypost.com/2021/05/02/nashville-cops-release-bodycam-of-fatal-police-shooting/

They had talked to the guy for 5 hours, and still the perp made the decision that led to his death.  In the end, it is up to the "mentally Ill" person to make the decision either way.

And if the I-65 guy hadn't encountered LEO, this too could have been his situation:

https://www.wsmv.com/news/goodlettsville-family-of-4-dead-after-father-admits-he-snapped/article_5b742bc6-8043-11ec-8295-af279e02e0ab.html

 

[bobsguns]

On 1/29/2022 at 10:45 AM, pop pop said:

Dealing with the mentally ill is not an easy thing to do. 

Short of being a shrink, it's damn near impossible for the layman, IMO. 

I remember the stink raised by the usual suspects when a crazy black female approached a Metro cop with a steak knife in her hand & the cop was sitting in his car seat. The poor cop ended up shooting her because she wouldn't stop when he told her to. I think I remember the jackass DA took it to a grand jury, which correctly failed to indict him. 

I remember when the State closed the old Central State facility on Murfreesboro Rd in Nashville. There was a rash of incidents when those poor folks got turned out on their own. 

Seems like the court case that turned them loose stated that just because they were bat#### crazy didn't mean the state could hold them involuntarily. The person had to be a threat to either themselves or the public. The old Deberry Institute on Antioch Pike housed the criminally insane. I think it too got closed down but I don't know for sure. I used to live about a mile from that one.

I sound like a broken record here, but some sort of netting device might be the easiest thing to neutralize a crazy. It keeps them from striking out at the cops, they can't swing their arms, etc. I've been told when a crazy person is having an episode, they become crazy strong as well. It's similar to the druggie's version of "excited delirium", which negates the use of tasers. 

I also note all those jackasses who abuse the cops are NEVER the ones volunteering to go deal with these crazy people either. Wonder why that is?????

Edited January 31, 2022 by bobsguns

[Omega]

9 hours ago, bobsguns said:

Short of being a shrink, it's damn near impossible for the layman, IMO. 

I remember the stink raised by the usual suspects when a crazy black female approached a Metro cop with a steak knife in her hand & the cop was sitting in his car seat. The poor cop ended up shooting her because she wouldn't stop when he told her to. I think I remember the jackass DA took it to a grand jury, which correctly failed to indict him. 

I remember when the State closed the old Central State facility on Murfreesboro Rd in Nashville. There was a rash of incidents when those poor folks got turned out on their own. 

Seems like the court case that turned them loose stated that just because they were bat#### crazy didn't mean the state could hold them involuntarily. The person had to be a threat to either themselves or the public. The old Deberry Institute on Antioch Pike housed the criminally insane. I think it too got closed down but I don't know for sure. I used to live about a mile from that one.

I sound like a broken record here, but some sort of netting device might be the easiest thing to neutralize a crazy. It keeps them from striking out at the cops, they can't swing their arms, etc. I've been told when a crazy person is having an episode, they become crazy strong as well. It's similar to the druggie's version of "excited delirium", which negates the use of tasers. 

I also note all those jackasses who abuse the cops are NEVER the ones volunteering to go deal with these crazy people either. Wonder why that is?????

No sense recommending something that is not in their inventory, and they won't buy something that doesn't have a good track record.  Many of the net systems I have seen used would still let the perp draw and fire, so they are not as good as they would seem to be.

[E4 No More]

On 1/29/2022 at 9:30 AM, gregintenn said:

I’m not sure why mentally ill is freely roaming around in public.

You can blame the Supreme Court.

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, E4 No More said:

You can blame the Supreme Court.

This decision, while addressing some abuses that were absolutely prevalent in the system, has had downstream effects that are completely and disgustingly tragic. 
 

The solution should have been to reform the system, not dismantle it. Placing the responsibility for dealing with folks that are mentally unfit to operate within society in the hands of the police is truly a criminal state of affairs.

[E4 No More]

45 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

This decision, while addressing some abuses that were absolutely prevalent in the system, has had downstream effects that are completely and disgustingly tragic. 
 

The solution should have been to reform the system, not dismantle it. Placing the responsibility for dealing with folks that are mentally unfit to operate within society in the hands of the police is truly a criminal state of affairs.

I couldn't agree more.

[pop pop]

Most of these guys could be contributing members of society if the would stay on their meds. But they will not.

Turns out this guy moved to Nashville, a few years back to start new, and has been in trouble with drugs, drinking, along with mental illness. He was not an alter boy by any means. Still tragic. 

[Capbyrd]

A lot of the conversation in this group seems to be about a very specific group of mental consumers.  
 

Not all mental consumers are dangerous or a threat to society.  
 

Some of them absolutely are.  But what about the case in Florida a few years back?  An autistic man was playing with a car in the street.  His caregiver was laying on his back with his arms raised and the cops shot him?  I believe that when people talk about educating cops to deal with mental consumers, they are referring more to situations like this.  
 

The dangerous people are a different story. But an inability to follow a cop’s command does not make you dangerous. 
 

 

[Garufa]

5 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

A lot of the conversation in this group seems to be about a very specific group of mental consumers.  
 

Not all mental consumers are dangerous or a threat to society.  
 

Some of them absolutely are.  But what about the case in Florida a few years back?  An autistic man was playing with a car in the street.  His caregiver was laying on his back with his arms raised and the cops shot him?  I believe that when people talk about educating cops to deal with mental consumers, they are referring more to situations like this.  
 

The dangerous people are a different story. But an inability to follow a cop’s command does not make you dangerous. 
 

 

What is a “mental consumer”?

[Grunt67]

On 1/29/2022 at 9:45 AM, pop pop said:

Mentally Ill were turned out, years ago in TN, when they closed all the State Run facilities. They did that because of all the law suites which took 20 years to settle all of them. I think all the states did the same, so there are few facilities to house them.

So now the Police are faced with dealing with them on the streets, basically. 

Dealing with the mentally ill is not an easy thing to do. 

The old Central State mental hospital years ago, was replaced in 1995 by Mid Tenn Mental hospital. When I was a Corrections Officer in the Trousdale Co. lockup from 2003 thru 2006, I've had to transport inmates there as well as Cumberland Mental health in Lebanon. Male & female.

An inmate having issues would have the crisis team come in for an evaluation, if needed, then sent to one of the above institutions. Usually they could only keep them 30 days, then sent back to the jail. The County caught the brunt of the problem. I've had to talk some that were suicidal down out of their tree. One in particular had a bad day in court, came back tried to hang himself. Managed to avoid that.

Build more institutions? Costs big buck, taxpayers don't want to pay for it, that simple. Not a popular thing for a politician to bring before the Legislature.

This is complicated in so many ways. It's not likely to change.

My.02 cts

[Capbyrd]

13 minutes ago, Garufa said:

What is a “mental consumer”?

Mentally ill person engaged in an interaction with the police.  “Consuming” police services.  

[Garufa]

14 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

Mentally ill person engaged in an interaction with the police.  “Consuming” police services.  

I don’t do politically correct, so is that the same as a “mental health consumer”?

[Capbyrd]

3 minutes ago, Garufa said:

I don’t do politically correct, so is that the same as a “mental health consumer”?

Couldn’t tell you.  

[Pain103]

Just my opinion from inside the broken system. First, mental health related issues are not law enforcement but medical in nature. Do away with the involuntary committal laws that make law enforcement rather than EMS or other healthcare related workers responsible for taking a person for “treatment” or even respond unless someone is in physical danger. Second, there must more investment in mental health treatment. Don’t know how the bill will be paid but I would suggest possibly teaming up with teaching universities to help. Third, some families and friends of people with mental illness need to be more involved with their people. 
 

I don’t think that is all but would be a start and I don’t believe we will ever have a magic fix. 

[bersaguy]

How many folks here thought that guy that opened fire in that theater in Colorado during the Bat Man premier thought he was crazy? All of his planning before and after the shooting show careful thought right up to an including wiring his apartment with explosives and making sure he was dressed in full body armor  and made sure he hit the only  gun free theater in that town? His attorney declared him mentally ill and unfit when the trial began and was his only defense. Does a mentally disturbed person go through that type of planning to commit a crime like that? 

[Capbyrd]

Just now, bersaguy said:

How many folks here thought that guy that opened fire in that theater in Colorado during the Bat Man premier thought he was crazy? All of his planning before and after the shooting show careful thought right up to an including wiring his apartment with explosives and making sure he was dressed in full body armor  and made sure he hit the only  gun free theater in that town? His attorney declared him mentally ill and unfit when the trial began and was his only defense. Does a mentally disturbed person go through that type of planning to commit a crime like that? 

Yes.  Some mental illnesses manifest themselves that way.  Mental illness doesn't always require a person to be incoherent or rocking back and forth. 

He could be schizophrenic and under the impression that he was working for the government (i.e. John Nash, subject of the film "A Beautiful Mind").