I-65 Shooting

[Hozzie]

1 hour ago, Chucktshoes said:

I will always call BS on this type of response. The question is simple, do you think the public has a right to determine how they want to be policed? 

Sure, go to Minneapolis and these other places where police aren't needed.  They decided what they wanted.  That's working out great. 

I will take the cops who do the best they can and error on the side that protects them and the majority of citizens, even if that included shooting a crazy person every now and then.  There are going to be tragic cases that happen.  It's not fair to the person or the officers, but it is what it is.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Hozzie

[Chucktshoes]

36 minutes ago, Hozzie said:

Sure, go to Minneapolis and these other places where police aren't needed.  They decided what they wanted.  That's working out great. 

I will take the cops who do the best they can and error on the side that protects them and the majority of citizens, even if that included shooting a crazy person every now and then.  There are going to be tragic cases that happen.  It's not fair to the person or the officers, but it is what it is.

I figured you would focus on this portion of the post and miss the entire rest of what I wrote. The main thrust of my point is that the policies and procedures that dictate the type of training and equipment the officers receive makes the general population and the officers less safe.
 

A perfect example of this in practice is the use of no knocks in the war on drugs. It is explicitly clear to me and many others that the use of those type of entries has increased the danger to police and the targets of the warrants. This is why you are seeing an increasing number of agencies and municipalities decide that they are not suitable for use with out a direct pre-existing threat to human life.
 

The public absolutely has the right to determine the type of policing they will receive. The downstream consequences of that may be positive, or like Minneapolis may be negative. If negative it is then up to the public to facilitate change course again so that things improve for all parties.
 

To deny that the public has a voice in how police operate is pure insanity to me. If the public doesn’t have a voice in how police operate, then you are saying that the police do not work for the public. If that’s the case, then who do they work for?

Edited January 31, 2022 by Chucktshoes

[bersaguy]

I had a friend killed by police and it was a pure case of Suicide by cop plain and simple except for one fact. His name was Ray and he was dying from Terminal cancer and had reached a point that he wanted to die but didn't have the ability to do it himself. He was well known by all the police and was friends with most of them so he knew he would have to force them to shoot him. He called 911 and said he was going to kill himself and they sent Police from THP and Cheatham County Sheriffs office to his home. He was standing out in his yard with a 22 rifle when they arrived. He didn't want to hurt any of them but knew he would need to provoke them. He fired 3 shots over their heads as they were trying to talk with him. None of them wanted to be the one that put him down. He and his brother owned a towing service and were zoned to tow for the county is how he got to know all  the police and many times his mother would cook breakfast for them. He fired 11 rounds each time getting closer to them. Finally another squad car arrived with a rookie new to the force arrived that didn't know him and he fired two rounds into the cars back door and the Rookie shot and killed him. Ray was not a bad person in any way. He just couldn't take the pain any longer and wanted to die. The officers spent more than an hour trying to talk to him and the rookie was there less then 5 minutes and Ray was dead. None of the police on the scene wanted to shoot Ray and I think the Rookie helped them all by shooting him. Rays family was there in the house when they heard the shots that killed him and the all clear was announced and they knew Ray was dead. None of the family was mad at the police for killing him because they knew that was what he wanted. That was probably one of the hardest calls those officers ever responded to. Ray would never have shot one of them but the Rookie did not know that. I think a Police officer is one of the hardest job a person can have and I have the utmost respect for them....JMHO 

[Defender]

2 hours ago, Hozzie said:

Easy to armchair quarterback when there are no repercussions to you personally.

I am not a cop, but have worked with hundreds of police agencies from around the world.  Everywhere is different, but one thing is for certain.  There will always be someone who can tell you how to do your job better when they have never done it.

I think of this video every time these discussion come up.

 

Years ago, I went through shoot/don’t shoot training with the Diplomatic Protection Group (DPG) of the Metropolitan Police of London.  The technology wasn’t what it is now, but the scenarios were real and intense.  At that time, the DPG were among the very few police in England that were armed on a regular basis.  As a person who was routinely armed at work at the time, I was rudely surprised in how many times I got killed or shot innocent citizens.  It’s easy on TV or on Monday morning.  Nit so easy at a time of stress, despite any amount of training.  Training budgets don’t provide enough time to train for everything.

[bobsguns]

4 hours ago, Hozzie said:

Easy to armchair quarterback when there are no repercussions to you personally.

I am not a cop, but have worked with hundreds of police agencies from around the world.  Everywhere is different, but one thing is for certain.  There will always be someone who can tell you how to do your job better when they have never done it.

I've never worked as a licensed plumber but I know better than to leave the water turned on when removing plumbing fixtures. I'm not a licensed electrician but I know to shut the power off before repairing or replacing electrical items other than appliances. Get my drift there?

One thing I have also learned in my life is you never know what someone has done in their past career(s). I once knew a retired Navy SEAL (not fake, he was the real deal) who worked as a maintenance man. He later took a job in FL as a maintenance man at a county jail. Once time they had a mini riot with their prisoners & guess who the sheriff call in to get everybody back to their cells? Yep, the good old maintenance guy. It worked too.

I've never been a bank robber but I have a pretty good idea what's not the best way to go about it. 

Life is full of "armchair QB", regardless of one's job. The mil uses "after action reports" to review what happened & how to do it better next time. Convention centers do the same thing after a convention to see how they could do better on the next group. It's all over the place, in almost every occupation. 

These cops were no doubt following what & how they were trained. Can't it be said that perhaps that particular strategy might be the wrong way to do something? Are we just supposed to say, "Way to go, guys! Way to shoot a suicidal suspect & help him be on his way!"???? Or are we supposed to ignore everything that happened as if it never did? Please, by all means, tell us what is the proper thing we should be doing, in your opinion? 

[bersaguy]

23 minutes ago, bobsguns said:

I've never worked as a licensed plumber but I know better than to leave the water turned on when removing plumbing fixtures. I'm not a licensed electrician but I know to shut the power off before repairing or replacing electrical items other than appliances. Get my drift there?

One thing I have also learned in my life is you never know what someone has done in their past career(s). I once knew a retired Navy SEAL (not fake, he was the real deal) who worked as a maintenance man. He later took a job in FL as a maintenance man at a county jail. Once time they had a mini riot with their prisoners & guess who the sheriff call in to get everybody back to their cells? Yep, the good old maintenance guy. It worked too.

I've never been a bank robber but I have a pretty good idea what's not the best way to go about it. 

Life is full of "armchair QB", regardless of one's job. The mil uses "after action reports" to review what happened & how to do it better next time. Convention centers do the same thing after a convention to see how they could do better on the next group. It's all over the place, in almost every occupation. 

These cops were no doubt following what & how they were trained. Can't it be said that perhaps that particular strategy might be the wrong way to do something? Are we just supposed to say, "Way to go, guys! Way to shoot a suicidal suspect & help him be on his way!"???? Or are we supposed to ignore everything that happened as if it never did? Please, by all means, tell us what is the proper thing we should be doing, in your opinion? 

I don't have an opinion on it. I was not there and not going to second guess the actions of the police that were. I would say they were all just trying to get home alive. It is what all of us do every time we go out whether it is for work or just a trip for some milk and bread.

[Hozzie]

51 minutes ago, bobsguns said:

I've never worked as a licensed plumber but I know better than to leave the water turned on when removing plumbing fixtures. I'm not a licensed electrician but I know to shut the power off before repairing or replacing electrical items other than appliances. Get my drift there?

One thing I have also learned in my life is you never know what someone has done in their past career(s). I once knew a retired Navy SEAL (not fake, he was the real deal) who worked as a maintenance man. He later took a job in FL as a maintenance man at a county jail. Once time they had a mini riot with their prisoners & guess who the sheriff call in to get everybody back to their cells? Yep, the good old maintenance guy. It worked too.

I've never been a bank robber but I have a pretty good idea what's not the best way to go about it. 

Life is full of "armchair QB", regardless of one's job. The mil uses "after action reports" to review what happened & how to do it better next time. Convention centers do the same thing after a convention to see how they could do better on the next group. It's all over the place, in almost every occupation. 

These cops were no doubt following what & how they were trained. Can't it be said that perhaps that particular strategy might be the wrong way to do something? Are we just supposed to say, "Way to go, guys! Way to shoot a suicidal suspect & help him be on his way!"???? Or are we supposed to ignore everything that happened as if it never did? Please, by all means, tell us what is the proper thing we should be doing, in your opinion? 

Yeah, let's compare a complex scenario such as this to turning off the electric.   Everyone does after action reports and they should be done, no one is saying they shouldn't .   What I am saying is Joe Public sitting on his couch has no more credibility or background in most cases to have an opinion that even matters to the people who have to make decisions on policy and procedures based on real world experience.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion.  I am not saying police are always right, simply that all this "they should have" is ridiculous.  It reminds me of people who always say, they should have just shot them in the leg.  So, if you have the answers, go to your police department and help them out.  I am sure they would be glad to listen.  

 

[pop pop]

I really have mixed feelings because this ended bad. I say again, "I am for law and order." Do you think the perp didn't realize what would happen if he did pull that shiny pipe? The guy had his hand in his pocket and came out with a shiny round pipe of some sort, and was in a shooting stance.

We have been having, fights, holdups, and muggings at our local grocery store, during daylight, and for sure at night. Most on here conceal carry, I assume.  Some go to the store. What are you going to do if you face a similar situation in the Kroger parking lot tomorrow(Guy acts threatening and pulls a long shiny pipe on You)? "All" trainers will tell you, "hesitation will get you killed." I told my students that very thing, When I taught classes. Defiantly not an easy situation guys. I am not going to second guess. 

[Alleycat72]

let's be honest, most people have no idea how they would react to bullets flying by them. I'll be the first to say that I had no idea I was being shot at my first time in my 20s. My buddy hitting the ground was my first clue. The second was him screaming "He's shooting at you". You don't know how you'll react until it happens. I'm not going to judge someone until I know the facts. I'd be more interested in who didn't shoot. I've been shot, stabbed, and beaten. I have zero patents for the homeless or mentally ill on the streets. That's why I could never be a police officer. I just don't have the soul for it.          

[Grayfox54]

Hindsight is 20/20. 

One of the best friends I ever had was a retired Police officer. Medically retired due to an on-the-job injury.  During his career he worked patrol, narcotics and undercover. He was shot twice, cut twice and had numerous broken bones. In all four of the serious attacks it happened so fast and so unexpected that he couldn't react until after he was already injured.  None of his attackers survived their encounter. 

He described Police work as hours and hours of routine, tedious boredom broken by occasional moments of sheer terror. 

Police Officers are daily asked to deal with the worst our society has to offer. It rarely goes as planned. I support our LEOs and whatever they have to do to go home at the end of their shift.