interpretation question

[Guest Revelator]

You had a good permit instructor, Arch. That's probably the best way to handle that situation.

[Guest archerdr1]

I liked him. He was a SWAT officer. He also had a hand in training me when I was in the Police Academy. Needless to say, I had some really good training!

[Guest Angel 24/7]

my head is spinning! So did I break the law? I have alot of LEO that come in & visit me. I will get their input.

[Fallguy]

You had a good permit instructor, Arch. That's probably the best way to handle that situation.

+1

[Guest Ggun]

I understand that, but he is in possesion of it if he is wearing it as a passenger.

That is the point. The law doesn't seem to give passengers the same rights as the operater.

[Guest hickok]

Despite the issue of armed passenger liability, the general matter of dropping off and picking up kids is pretty clear, I think. As long as the driver is not handling the gun, all is okay.

It's the issue of parking the car for awhile or all day on school grounds with the firearm locked up in it that still seems murky in the verbiage of the law. My guess is that if you ask ten experienced LEO's, you'd get a mixed bad of answers. It's looking like the same goes for attorneys. Since it IS unclear to so many, I suppose the good news is that a good attorney should be able to keep one out of jail over it. My attorney says it’s very “defensible,†which is also open to interpretation.

I have a solution: next year when basketball season starts, somebody call Homeland Security some Friday night and claim that you have special information about terrorists attending high school basketball games, posing as normal folks, wearing baseball caps and driving pickup trucks. Then, once everybody's investigated and things have calmed down about the bogus terrorist issue, we'd surely see via the news whether there are any charges filed for the 2,237 handguns found in the 2,240 pickups! :-)

Of course, whoever made the call would be watching from a jail cell somewhere, but it would be for a good cause: clarification of the law!

(For anybody looking in who suffers from a condition known as "humorlessness," this is only a joke.)

[dralarms]

The law says that it is an offense to possess or carry a firearm on school property, except that if it's on you while you're operating your car (with carry permit, of course).

Well, you can't be in possession of or carrying it when it's 150 yards away, locked up.

Now I could see that when you have to actually lock that gun up, you have to take it out and such--you have to handle it, and the exception applies only if you do not handle the gun so maybe that's where the uncertaintly is coming from. But there's nothing in 39-17-1309 (Weapons on School Property law) that says it's a crime to lock your gun up in the car while it's on school property. I am not aware of a bill that addresses locking up guns on school grounds, but I certainly couldn't tell you every gun bill that's out there right now.

The police officer that did our course told us that if we were driving on school property to pick up our kids that we could do so while having the gun on our person but if we needed to run in to lock it in our glove box BEFORE entering the property because if someone were to see us putting it into our glove box they could say we were "Handling" it.

Exactly. Put it up BEFROE you get onto school property. I do each and every time. I do security work at local schools (alarm work) and I have a gun safe in my truck. I always take mine off and put it in the gun safe as well as all other occupants (IMO the law applies to anyone in the vehicle). Sometimes there are 4 or 5 guns in the safe at one time:rolleyes:. I worry more about the pocket knife I carry, I can see it now, I pull it out to cut something work related and get jacked up.

Anyway, all LE I have spoke to says locked up in you vehicle is fine. Oh and just for the record, I do not take off my holster, so anyone who sees me while I'm working (my holster gets exposed sometimes) could asume there is a gun in my vehicle. No one has ever said a thing.

[Guest archerdr1]

It's too much work to take off the holster too. They did make me take off my holster when i went into the Hamilton County Courthouse. They said that "It might make someone think that there is a gun in it...pretty hard when the holster is EMPTY!!!

[Guest hickok]

Thanks for the confident post, dralarms; you've pretty much put your company where your mouth is in posting your comments. In your business, I'm sure you get lots of opportunities to speak with law enforment. A car safe is probably the best idea, although unlike a locked glove box, it's definitely an announcement that there's a gun in the vehicle. If it's legal, hidden, and the safe is bolted down, guess it doesn't matter.

A teacher friend of mine figures a judge would look favorably on him, even if there IS a legal issue, if his gun were unloaded, trigger locked with slide removed, locked in the glove box, and in a locked, alarmed car, all done before he drives onto campus. He figures he wouldn't pose much of a threat to any school children, or even anybody breaking into his car and taking the trigger-locked gun.

Anybody who knows a good trigger lock knows that you could throw a properly trigger locked (loaded or unloaded) gun into the toy box at a day care and be confident everyone would be safe. Not something I'd recommend however! :-)

Plus, something that hasn't been discussed is the level of "Probable Cause" that it would require for anybody to know what's in your car anyway.

All that said, even though the "need a life" busy bodies of the world try to justify anything and everything for the "sake of the children," the safety of kids on school grounds IS paramount. There SHOULD be no way that students could ever be victimized by somebody getting his hands on a gun locked in a car, even if broken into. Safes and trigger locks are not that expensive. Just my .02 worth.

[Guest Ggun]

Despite the issue of armed passenger liability, the general matter of dropping off and picking up kids is pretty clear, I think. As long as the driver is not handling the gun, all is okay.

It's the issue of parking the car for awhile or all day on school grounds with the firearm locked up in it that still seems murky in the verbiage of the law. My guess is that if you ask ten experienced LEO's, you'd get a mixed bad of answers. It's looking like the same goes for attorneys. Since it IS unclear to so many, I suppose the good news is that a good attorney should be able to keep one out of jail over it. My attorney says it’s very “defensible,†which is also open to interpretation.

I have a solution: next year when basketball season starts, somebody call Homeland Security some Friday night and claim that you have special information about terrorists attending high school basketball games, posing as normal folks, wearing baseball caps and driving pickup trucks. Then, once everybody's investigated and things have calmed down about the bogus terrorist issue, we'd surely see via the news whether there are any charges filed for the 2,237 handguns found in the 2,240 pickups! :-)

Of course, whoever made the call would be watching from a jail cell somewhere, but it would be for a good cause: clarification of the law!

(For anybody looking in who suffers from a condition known as "humorlessness," this is only a joke.)

Your extreme example really brings home the point, though.

The rationale of the law is to allow an adult HCP owner to keep his or her firearm in their possession, within the confines of their vehcle, while dropping off or picking up their kids.

The law is not meant to allow people to leave their firearms in their vehicles while they are on school grounds. It easy to phrase language to allow that, but the legislature did not do that.

The statute in question gives the operator of the vehicle certain protection, which is clear and has a benficial public policy.

There is no beneficial public policy in allowing operable firearms in parked vehicles on school grounds.

[Fallguy]

The rationale of the law is to allow an adult HCP owner to keep his or her firearm in their possession, within the confines of their vehcle, while dropping off or picking up their kids.

True...that is 39-17-1310(4)

The law is not meant to allow people to leave their firearms in their vehicles while they are on school grounds.

I (and many others it appears) disagree. It seems the second half of 39-17-1309©(1) does allow that.

Two different situations, two different parts of the law.

[Guest hickok]

True...that is 39-17-1310(4)

I (and many others it appears) disagree. It seems the second half of 39-17-1309©(1) does allow that.

Two different situations, two different parts of the law.

The question that matters is, what do police officers and judges think it means! Don't guess we have any judges registered here?

[Fallguy]

The question that matters is, what do police officers and judges think it means! Don't guess we have any judges registered here?

As you or someone said....probably could ask 10 different officials and get at least 5-6 different answers.

But I'm still not sure if you have it locked up in your car before you get to school grounds.....How is anyone going to know it is in your car?

[Guest Ggun]

True...that is 39-17-1310(4)

I (and many others it appears) disagree. It seems the second half of 39-17-1309©(1) does allow that.

Two different situations, two different parts of the law.

Why is "operated by the adult" included in the law if it is to apply to a vehicle which is not being operated, but is parked?

[Fallguy]

Why is "operated by the adult" included in the law if it is to apply to a vehicle which is not being operated, but is parked?

IMO to distinguish who drove the vehicle to the school and the one that has the keys, to show who could unlock it and also drive it and is responsible for the vehicle and it's contents.

In TN law operating does not necessarily mean in motion.

Just like you can be charged with a DUI, which is "operating" a motor vehicle while intoxicated, even if the car is parked and are in the back seat asleep if you have the keys or the keys are in the ignition.

[Guest 270win]

It is my understanding of the law that someone can have the handgun on him with 'intent to go armed' (ready to use, loaded) when dropping off and picking up passengers at a school. If you have any extended business, the firearm needs to be in the trunk and away from ammo to not have 'intent to go armed', because you can possess in your car but not have intent to go armed....such as I may need to go to Rhodes and fill out some paperwork...I would need that handgun in the trunk BEFORE getting to Rhodes.

[Guest Ggun]

IMO to distinguish who drove the vehicle to the school and the one that has the keys, to show who could unlock it and also drive it and is responsible for the vehicle and it's contents.

In TN law operating does not necessarily mean in motion.

Just like you can be charged with a DUI, which is "operating" a motor vehicle while intoxicated, even if the car is parked and are in the back seat asleep if you have the keys or the keys are in the ignition.

Under this interpretation, which is certainly reasonable, then passengers are not protected, right?

[Guest archerdr1]

I guess if the passenger is carrying he should ask his buddy to let HIM drive in and pick up the kids!

[Guest Alpha Dog]

It is my understanding of the law that someone can have the handgun on him with 'intent to go armed' (ready to use, loaded) when dropping off and picking up passengers at a school. If you have any extended business, the firearm needs to be in the trunk and away from ammo to not have 'intent to go armed', because you can possess in your car but not have intent to go armed....such as I may need to go to Rhodes and fill out some paperwork...I would need that handgun in the trunk BEFORE getting to Rhodes.

Seems like I remember reading somewhere that "intent to go armed" in the law means a person with a handgun WITHOUT a permit.

If you have a permit, you have PERMISSION to go armed.

Or is it that every time you carry, you have "intent to go armed" and those of us with HCP just have a "defense" (or would it more accurately be called an "exception") to the violation??

Anybody able to clarify?

[Guest Ggun]

I guess if the passenger is carrying he should ask his buddy to let HIM drive in and pick up the kids!

And if they are both carrying? Uh, oh.

[Guest Ggun]

IMO to distinguish who drove the vehicle to the school and the one that has the keys, to show who could unlock it and also drive it and is responsible for the vehicle and it's contents.

In TN law operating does not necessarily mean in motion.

Just like you can be charged with a DUI, which is "operating" a motor vehicle while intoxicated, even if the car is parked and are in the back seat asleep if you have the keys or the keys are in the ignition.

thinking about this...if you can't convict someone for operating a vehicle under the influence if that person is inside a facility, say an auditorium, can a person, sober of course, be operating a vehicle to escape felony charges of having a firearm on school grounds if he is in the facility and his firearm is in his vehicle?

[Guest archerdr1]

And if they are both carrying? Uh, oh.

well, I wouldn't advise having him sit on your lap!

Maybe he will let you drive, and he can put his gun loaded in the glove box...because if you are operating the vehicle, you are responsible for what is in the car, and I just wouldn't want to be the one to put the gun in the glove box! That is why when i travel, I always have a backup in the glove box... if I break down and someone comes to "help" (as in help me get my wallet out of my pocket) and I am not able to stop it, it is there and she can help out.

Edited March 15, 2009 by archerdr1

[Fallguy]

thinking about this...if you can't convict someone for operating a vehicle under the influence if that person is inside a facility, say an auditorium, can a person, sober of course, be operating a vehicle to escape felony charges of having a firearm on school grounds if he is in the facility and his firearm is in his vehicle?

All I can say is, I have been on school grounds many times with my handgun in my car, most times I didn't put in the glovebox till I was already parked. Always made sure no one saw me and never had my car searched or asked to be searched or any other incidents. I personally never felt I was doing anything illegal, however that was based on my interpretation of the law and what I would tell a LEO and or judge. Others may not feel that way or want to take the same actions, and I am by no means recommending my actions to others.

[Guest db99wj]

All I can say is, I have been on school grounds many times with my handgun in my car, most times I didn't put in the glovebox till I was already parked. Always made sure no one saw me and never had my car searched or asked to be searched or any other incidents. I personally never felt I was doing anything illegal, however that was based on my interpretation of the law and what I would tell a LEO and or judge. Others may not feel that way or want to take the same actions, and I am by no means recommending my actions to others.

[dralarms]

All I can say is, I have been on school grounds many times with my handgun in my car, most times I didn't put in the glovebox till I was already parked. Always made sure no one saw me and never had my car searched or asked to be searched or any other incidents. I personally never felt I was doing anything illegal, however that was based on my interpretation of the law and what I would tell a LEO and or judge. Others may not feel that way or want to take the same actions, and I am by no means recommending my actions to others.

That's my take on it. BUT if you guy's would like I can get the local Chief of Police to give us his opinion:rolleyes:.