interpretation question

[Guest Fenris]

OK, I did search and if this has been hashed out, I apologize.

TCA 39-17-1309 © (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

My question is about the use of the word "operated". IANAL, but that could that mean "in current operation of" or that could mean "the car is usually operated by. I guess the difference is that in the first interpretation if I lock my gun in my car and go into the school, then I am in violation of the law. With the second reading of the word, I am not. Has this been discussed? I might be reading too much into it, but I'm trying to look into the different angles of this.

[Guest Revelator]

First, if you lock your gun in the car then go inside the school, under no circumstances would you be in violation of the law because you are not in possession of the gun.

It means "currently operated by," as in the adult is currently driving the car or sitting in it while parked.

[Fallguy]

Sort of like you can be charged with DUI even if the car isn't moving...as long as you have the keys and have the ability to make it move, you are the operator of the vehicle.

[Guest Fenris]

Thanks for that clarification. I work at a private school. I am sure the administration would be OK with the scenario of me locking my gun in my car if I were going someplace after hours where I would carry, but wanted to be sure that I was also OK from a legal standpoint.

[Oh Shoot]

It means "currently operated by," as in the adult is currently driving the car or sitting in it while parked.

So if I'm in my friend's car (he's driving), or even my own car (wife driving), picking up a kid say, then I'm in violation if I'm packing?

- OS

[GLOCKMEISTER]

in control of...

[Oh Shoot]

in control of...

In not in control of it if I'm in my friend's car unless I'm behind the wheel, eh?

- OS

[Fallguy]

So if I'm in my friend's car (he's driving), or even my own car (wife driving), picking up a kid say, then I'm in violation if I'm packing?

- OS

I wouldn't think so, unless you get out of the car, handle your weapon or allow someone else to handle your weapon.

[Guest Ggun]

Thanks for that clarification. I work at a private school. I am sure the administration would be OK with the scenario of me locking my gun in my car if I were going someplace after hours where I would carry, but wanted to be sure that I was also OK from a legal standpoint.

Well, if you are going to physically lock it up it in your car while on school grounds, say from your hip, you may have a legal problem, no? I suppose you are talking about putting it in lockup off the grounds, which MAY be ok, unless it is not considered to be OPERATED by you if you leave the vehicle.

I'm not so sure about having a car full of handgun possesors in the car, since the statute speaks of the adult operator, not the five passengers possessing the guns. That may be a problem.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Ggun
clarification

[Guest hickok]

OK, I did search and if this has been hashed out, I apologize.

My question is about the use of the word "operated". IANAL, but that could that mean "in current operation of" or that could mean "the car is usually operated by. I guess the difference is that in the first interpretation if I lock my gun in my car and go into the school, then I am in violation of the law. With the second reading of the word, I am not. Has this been discussed? I might be reading too much into it, but I'm trying to look into the different angles of this.

Mr. Stegall, it's good to see an attorney so certain about the interpretation of this law, particularly since this is an area you study and deal with regularly. It's been my experience, however, as I've spoken with attorneys and others that it's not so clear that one is not breaking the law by leaving a handgun locked up in one's car in a school parking lot.

A TFA rep informed me at a recent gun show that somebody in Memphis was proposing a bill that would allow it, or perhaps clarify it. Does this make any sense? I'm just trying to get clarification myself, clarification that I can be confident in. Please, as an attorney, make me feel better about your stance/interpretation on this.

My contention is that at least fifty people could be arrested at any high school sporting event every day if this is truly illegal. Perhaps lawmakers want to keep it ambiguous in order to discourage guns from being brought onto school property.

Anyway, thanks for your insight on the matter, as well as any additional thoughts you might have.

Thanks,

[Guest Angel 24/7]

I am glad I read this thread. Yesterday I was coming through our small town & the Readerboard sign at my son school said, Book fair open 3:00-7:00. I whipped in, to pick up my son some of the books he pointed out in the flyer they sent home.

I had my S&W M&p9 on my hip. I thought if I had it on school property it was breaking the law. I put it in the compartment & locked the door before going in. I guess, I did good.

Thanks

[Guest Ggun]

I am glad I read this thread. Yesterday I was coming through our small town & the Readerboard sign at my son school said, Book fair open 3:00-7:00. I whipped in, to pick up my son some of the books he pointed out in the flyer they sent home.

I had my S&W M&p9 on my hip. I thought if I had it on school property it was breaking the law. I put it in the compartment & locked the door before going in. I guess, I did good.

Thanks

I believe that issue is still open to discussion, i.e. whether the nonstudent adult can legally leave the vehicle with the gun in the vehcle on school property.

[Guest Revelator]

The law says that it is an offense to possess or carry a firearm on school property, except that if it's on you while you're operating your car (with carry permit, of course).

Well, you can't be in possession of or carrying it when it's 150 yards away, locked up.

Now I could see that when you have to actually lock that gun up, you have to take it out and such--you have to handle it, and the exception applies only if you do not handle the gun so maybe that's where the uncertaintly is coming from. But there's nothing in 39-17-1309 (Weapons on School Property law) that says it's a crime to lock your gun up in the car while it's on school property. I am not aware of a bill that addresses locking up guns on school grounds, but I certainly couldn't tell you every gun bill that's out there right now.

[Fallguy]

The law says that it is an offense to possess or carry a firearm on school property, except that if it's on you while you're operating your car (with carry permit, of course).

Well, you can't be in possession of or carrying it when it's 150 yards away, locked up.

Now I could see that when you have to actually lock that gun up, you have to take it out and such--you have to handle it, and the exception applies only if you do not handle the gun so maybe that's where the uncertaintly is coming from. But there's nothing in 39-17-1309 (Weapons on School Property law) that says it's a crime to lock your gun up in the car while it's on school property. I am not aware of a bill that addresses locking up guns on school grounds, but I certainly couldn't tell you every gun bill that's out there right now.

+1 ...of course that doesn't mean all school officals and/or LEOs know the law.

Also remember...if you are just dropping off or picking up students without getting out of the car, you can leave it on your hip even. 39-17-1310(4)

[Guest canynracer]

So if I'm in my friend's car (he's driving), or even my own car (wife driving), picking up a kid say, then I'm in violation if I'm packing?

- OS

It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

[Guest Fenris]

Mr. Stegall,

Thank you. It's amazing how our language works. The whole intent of the words "operate" and "possession" was what made me doubt. Since the car is my property, I thought that by having it in the car made it in my possession.

I don't carry it to school most days, but there are times when I am going out of town after school and would have to lose 45 minutes or so to go home and get it.

[Guest Ggun]

I wouldn't think it out of question to be considered to be in possession of a handgun on school property if your handgun is locked in your vehicle and you are outside of the vehicle.

I'd be treading that water carefully.

[Guest Ggun]

It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

That part refers to the 'handling' of the firearm possessed by the adult operator, not to the possession itself.

[Fallguy]

That part refers to the 'handling' of the firearm possessed by the adult operator, not to the possession itself.

I have to agree

[Guest TNTgill]

I have a similar question regarding possession while under the influence. If my gun is in a locked compartment in my car am I still in possession of it. It would take time (mins) to get to the gun and isn't readily accessable at all. If it was unloaded and ammunition stored separately would it then be considered in storage or for transportation?

[Fallguy]

I have a similar question regarding possession while under the influence. If my gun is in a locked compartment in my car am I still in possession of it. It would take time (mins) to get to the gun and isn't readily accessable at all. If it was unloaded and ammunition stored separately would it then be considered in storage or for transportation?

IANAL, but IMO if it is still in the passenger compartment, you are in still in cosrtuctive possession of it, even if not in actual possession.

If it was unloaded in the trunk, that might be different.

[Guest canynracer]

That part refers to the 'handling' of the firearm possessed by the adult operator, not to the possession itself.

I understand that, but he is in possesion of it if he is wearing it as a passenger.

[Guest db99wj]

Multiple times a day, dropping off kids, going to sporting events at the private school, which is also a Church, the Church is the primary entity, part of the grounds are Church, part are school, sometimes they are interchangeable....

Crazy huh? Welcome to my world.

Mine is on my hip, minding it's own business, not getting fondled, or it is locked up while I get out of the Jeep to go into or onto the grounds.

Glad schools are gun free zones.

[Fallguy]

It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

I believe the part your emphasized has to do with the weapon of the operator of the vehicle, and him/her not handling it..or allowing someone else to handle it. As opposed to weapons by others in the vehicle.

Not really sure how it works, if you're not the operator of the vehicle, but leave your handgun locked in the car when you go inside....

[Guest archerdr1]

The police officer that did our course told us that if we were driving on school property to pick up our kids that we could do so while having the gun on our person but if we needed to run in to lock it in our glove box BEFORE entering the property because if someone were to see us putting it into our glove box they could say we were "Handling" it.