Guy I know charged with murder

[m16ty]

A guy I know is a relatively good guy, and even though he was using self defense, he's charged with murder. What brings us to his murder charge stems from the circumstances.

This guy had a beef with another guy that lives not too far from me (I think it was woman problems). He goes to the victims house to confront him, supposedly to just have a conversation. When he pulls up, before he can even get out of his truck, the victim comes out of the house and comes at him. They get into a fistfight, the victim's girlfriend comes out of the house with a handgun, put's it to the guy's head while they are rolling on the ground, and pulls the trigger (there wasn't a round in the chamber). He manages to get the gun away from the girl and throws it into the edge of the woods. Still fighting, he finally gets the best of the victim, and leaves him laying there on the ground. Thinking he is just passed out, he goes back to his truck about the time the cops show up. Come to find out the victim is dead. The guy had a loaded firearm in his truck, but at no time did he try to retrieve it and shoot the victim. Even though it does appear that he was fighting the victim in self defense, the fact that he drove to the victim's house under less than friendly circumstances, get's him a murder charge. 

I'm just throwing this out there, because the guy isn't a bad guy and I truly don't think he was trying to kill anybody. The victim is dead none the less, and he put himself into a situation where he is charged with murder. It just goes to show you that you need to be very careful the situations we put ourselves in, because things can go bad fast, and you either wind up dead (he is very lucky the girlfriend's gun didn't have a round in the chamber) or possibly in prison for the rest of your life.

[Snaveba]

That’s why I’m a lover not a fighter 

[A.J. Holst]

7 hours ago, m16ty said:

 the fact that he drove to the victim's house under less than friendly circumstances, get's him a murder charge

First mistake

7 hours ago, m16ty said:

(I think it was woman problems)

The road to the first mistake.

 

[Sleep profit]

Men will get in trouble with women and drugs fast a many of good men has fallen to these  man is born to trouble as surely as sparks fly upward. (Job) 

[pop pop]

When women are involved, it is mostly never a casual conversation between 2 men. Shouldn't have gone there. 

[Alleycat72]

Before I was married, I started flirting with a young lady that had a boyfriend. I didn't know she had a boyfriend because she didn't tell me. She did tell her boyfriend. He walked up to me an asked me if I was flirting with his girlfriend in a very casual way. I told him I didn't realize she was dating someone, I apologized, and told him it wouldn't happen again. We shook hands and went or separated ways because we are adults. 

[Chucktshoes]

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Unless it is a structured setting like a professional match or even a martial arts class setting, there are zero winners when grown men fight. It’s always a losing proposition for everyone. 

[E4 No More]

Never rub another man's rhubarb.

[peejman]

 

 

Hopefully your friend gets a good attorney and can get the charges back to something more reasonable. Murder seems a reach, but that's a bad situation for everyone. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by peejman

[miller_man]

Sorry for your friend, unfortunate mistakes made.

This reminds me of the good side effects of carrying a gun on my person everyday/where - I 100% purposely avoid putting myself into any chance of getting into altercations.

[gregintenn]

The fella may be a saint, but driving to someone else's house and beating them to death is going to be a difficult hole to dig out of.

[Spots]

21 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Unless it is a structured setting like a professional match or even a martial arts class setting, there are zero winners when grown men fight. It’s always a losing proposition for everyone. 

You are 100% correct, but I will say there are some people who basically walk around begging for an ass whipping. The fact that an altercation is almost guaranteed to send both parties to jail has had the unfortunate side effect of making people way to comfortable with being bullies and douchebags on a very regular basis with little fear of repercussions. 

[Chucktshoes]

13 minutes ago, Spots said:

You are 100% correct, but I will say there are some people who basically walk around begging for an ass whipping. The fact that an altercation is almost guaranteed to send both parties to jail has had the unfortunate side effect of making people way to comfortable with being bullies and douchebags on a very regular basis with little fear of repercussions. 

You’re also 100% correct. It’s a suboptimal state of affairs. 

[billyblazes]

I'm aware personally of a few cases similar to what was described by the OP.  In one of the cases the State Attorney's Office did not prosecute.  In another the alleged assailant was acquitted based upon a legal defense of self-defense.  Regardless, a lot of sleepless nights and a lot of money out of pocket on legal fees for those individuals. 

It's unfortunate but too many times I've seen officers make an arrest on the spot with the attitude that the Prosecutor's Office can figure it out and make the call to charge or not.  Besides seeing that attitude regularly on display I'm also speaking from experience in that regard.  An angry, frustrated cop arrested me, I contacted my attorney, posted bond and waited for over two months for things to play out while they decided whether or not to even charge me.  When the ASA got around to looking at the charge and the supposed evidence, he declined to move forward.  The ASA was reportedly frustrated that the cop even arrested me.  I'm proof that "you can beat the charge but you can't beat the ride."

I wonder if the gentleman in this instance has any self-defense insurance and if it will come into play on this.  I know that CCW Safe will not cover a domestic situation.  This seems very domestic in nature.

[papa61]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:23 AM, Chucktshoes said:

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Unless it is a structured setting like a professional match or even a martial arts class setting, there are zero winners when grown men fight. It’s always a losing proposition for everyone. 

I don't like to fight, never did, but ifit comes down to it someone's gonna get hurt. And you can be damned certain I'm not gonna be the only one.

 

"If you have to fight, fight like the third monkey at the Ark...and it's starting to rain"
author unknown

[Garufa]

There always seems to be a common denominator in such heated situations.    

Two guys being played by the object of dispute.

There are plenty of fish in the sea.  No need lose your mind, and life, over a temporary “relationship”.

[Alleycat72]

1 hour ago, papa61 said:

I don't like to fight, never did, but ifit comes down to it someone's gonna get hurt. And you can be damned certain I'm not gonna be the only one.

 

"If you have to fight, fight like the third monkey at the Ark...and it's starting to rain"
author unknown

I used to love the fight.  It was so much better than knowing it was coming, but never knowing when and it was always coming. 

[Spots]

15 minutes ago, Alleycat72 said:

I used to love the fight.  It was so much better than knowing it was coming, but never knowing when and it was always coming. 

I was the Sgt at Arms for an MC for a few years and I stayed in a bar fight pretty much every weekend for about 2 years straight. I got my fill of it. Now Ill do everything in my power to walk away. Put me in a corner and something bad is gonna happen though. 

[m16ty]

11 hours ago, billyblazes said:

I'm aware personally of a few cases similar to what was described by the OP.  In one of the cases the State Attorney's Office did not prosecute.  In another the alleged assailant was acquitted based upon a legal defense of self-defense.  Regardless, a lot of sleepless nights and a lot of money out of pocket on legal fees for those individuals. 

It's unfortunate but too many times I've seen officers make an arrest on the spot with the attitude that the Prosecutor's Office can figure it out and make the call to charge or not.  Besides seeing that attitude regularly on display I'm also speaking from experience in that regard.  An angry, frustrated cop arrested me, I contacted my attorney, posted bond and waited for over two months for things to play out while they decided whether or not to even charge me.  When the ASA got around to looking at the charge and the supposed evidence, he declined to move forward.  The ASA was reportedly frustrated that the cop even arrested me.  I'm proof that "you can beat the charge but you can't beat the ride."

I wonder if the gentleman in this instance has any self-defense insurance and if it will come into play on this.  I know that CCW Safe will not cover a domestic situation.  This seems very domestic in nature.

I may not have everything right, but he was first charged with manslaughter I think. He got out on bond (I think it was around $50k) and then I know it went to the Grand Jury where they upped the charge to I think 2nd degree murder. He was re-arrested and bond increased to $150k. He's out of bond now, so he had more money than I thought he had, or he's getting help from family. 

I wouldn't call the guy a friend of mine, I just know the family and he used to work for my uncle. To know him you wouldn't think he would harm anybody. He's in his 20s and I do hate to see him throw his life away over this, but does look like he killed somebody. It looks as if the victim had a heart attack during the fight. 

[philobeddoe]

A heart attack ain't murder.

[gregintenn]

8 hours ago, philobeddoe said:

A heart attack ain't murder.

It is if you beat it out of him.

[midtennchip]

This is one of those situations that you need to avoid at all costs.  If we have learned anything from the last few high-profile cases, there are people sitting on juries who will blame a defendant for ANY aggression whatsoever.  Luckily, most (not all) of these cases have not resulted in convictions, but all you have to do is listen to any media reports to know there is a segment of the population who will say "guilty" if the defendant was aggressive (or had a weapon) at all.  If you have the ability to decide whether or not to get into the situation, always choose NOT to get involved in that situation unless absolutely necessary.  

Obviously, we don't know the whole story in this case, but driving to confront someone is increasingly going to put you in jeopardy.  Not to mention this guy could easily have lost his life had the gun been loaded.  In that case, would the girl have had a "defense of others" claim?  Depending on the facts, she might.  There lies the problem.  When a situation goes to a mutual combat type of situation, it becomes very difficult to figure out who was defending and who was attacking.  Juries get to decide on those.  Choose wisely.

[peejman]

21 hours ago, midtennchip said:

This is one of those situations that you need to avoid at all costs.  If we have learned anything from the last few high-profile cases, there are people sitting on juries who will blame a defendant for ANY aggression whatsoever.  Luckily, most (not all) of these cases have not resulted in convictions, but all you have to do is listen to any media reports to know there is a segment of the population who will say "guilty" if the defendant was aggressive (or had a weapon) at all.  If you have the ability to decide whether or not to get into the situation, always choose NOT to get involved in that situation unless absolutely necessary.  

Obviously, we don't know the whole story in this case, but driving to confront someone is increasingly going to put you in jeopardy.  Not to mention this guy could easily have lost his life had the gun been loaded.  In that case, would the girl have had a "defense of others" claim?  Depending on the facts, she might.  There lies the problem.  When a situation goes to a mutual combat type of situation, it becomes very difficult to figure out who was defending and who was attacking.  Juries get to decide on those.  Choose wisely.

So then that puts more work on the defense attorney to figure out how to weed those folks out of the jury pool. I've found that process interesting/entertaining in the couple times I've gotten to jury selection. 

[midtennchip]

2 minutes ago, peejman said:

So then that puts more work on the defense attorney to figure out how to weed those folks out of the jury pool. I've found that process interesting/entertaining in the couple times I've gotten to jury selection. 

Often, we don't get that option.  Despite some of the movies and TV shows that act like jury selection is totally in the hands of the attorneys, that is not reality.  In my last jury trial (employment case), the judge refused to excuse a potential juror who broke down crying when certain questions in jury selection triggered her memory of a similar situation that happened to her.  She had an obvious bias and the judge would not strike her.  We were left with using one of our 3 strikes without cause.  In this day and age, I don't think 3 strikes without cause can get all the potential juror problems resolved (even assuming you can predict which individuals will be a problem). 

 

My purpose for bringing any of this up is to emphasize that letting a DA, judge, or jury decide your fate is a VERY risky proposition.  And with society seeming to be more polarized by the day (and most seem to be driven only by headlines and 120 character tweets), it is questionable how many jurors will even attempt to understand the nuance of the self-defense law.  I sincerely worry that jurors are making decisions based on pure emotion more and more every day.

[Alleycat72]

My Wife will have the police escort her the court a few times a year so she can testify. They always pick her up at work. It still seems odd when I see a case on the news that has ended and I had no idea my Wife was involved. Sometimes I can tell somethings up, but the answer is always "work stuff ".