The New Reality

[E4 No More]

14 hours ago, Links2k said:

At the end of day, the dead man was still the victim in THIS situation regardless of his past. I can’t argue with your expertise. I simply hope if I’m gunned down in a similar situation no one brings up the sh*t I did as a teen, in my early twenties or while serving in the army to justify my death. 
 

I agree that the three murderers didn’t think about the consequences of their actions.  The guy who made the video stopped working on his porch, walked inside his home to retrieve his truck keys to follow the pursuit. He could just as easily called 911, and perhaps he would be enjoying the holidays with his family. 

I couldn't agree more.

[Capbyrd]

18 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

OK , lets not fall into the "upstanding citizen of color gunned down while minding his own business" false narrative. Arbery was caught with a gun in a high school basketball game and arrested in 2013, was arrested for trying to steal a TV from Walmart in 2017, had mental issues (diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder after a 2018 incident ) where his mom had to call the police on him where she warned the dispatcher that responding officers should be careful because he would become violent if the police were confrontational...... so lets just stop the "he was a pillar of the community" stuff.

 

According to WTOC 11 in Savannah ....."

Arbery pleaded guilty to charges he carried a gun onto a high school campus in 2013, a year after he graduated. Rodney Ellis, police chief for the Glynn County school system, testified at Wednesday’s hearing that Arbery tried to evade officers on foot and stopped only when two of them pointed guns at him.

He was also arrested in 2017 on charges that he tried to steal a TV from a Walmart store. Court records show he pleaded guilty to shoplifting. Arbery was on probation at the time of his death." 

Being on probation from the shoplifting conviction might be a good reason to not submit to citizens arrest....He was also locally known to convenience store owners as "The Jogger " who would jog up in front of convenience stores and stop and stretch and then run inside , steal merchandise and run off. 

Now as to the three dumbasses that killed him.....Unlike Tennessee where you can't legally use lethal force to make a citizens arrest . under the confusing and poorly written GA law at the time of the killing it was LEGAL to use lethal force to perform a citizens arrest. That does not mean it was wise. These guys should have IMMEDIATELY called 911 and let the people who get paid to do that kind of thing arrest him. He was not committing a violent felony that needed to be stopped immediately so just get on the phone and don't go chasing him. Unfortunately emotions got the better of logic and chase was on. 

Now if we want to argue that the defendants were tired of stuff getting stolen in the neighborhood and that they had seen him there more than once (and he had actually been caught on at least 5 different dates on surveillance camera inside a house under construction in the Satilla Shores) then OK fine,  but just like the angry dog chasing the car....what exactly did you plan to do with the car once you catch it?  These guys were not just out cruising around looking for black joggers to shoot. They were chasing him specifically because they (right or wrongly ) thought he specifically was the one responsible for all the petty theft going on in that neighborhood. And MAYBE he was .... we do not KNOW for sure that he wasn't. 

But like I tell everyone that will listen....you REALLY need to have a very short and very well thought out and reasoned list of things you are willing to kill people over because once you interject the gun someone may well die. Even if you are within the law (and the way the confusing citizens arrest statute at the time was written they arguably were ) when the chase begins , are you prepared for what may happen if you corner him and he does not submit peacefully? What if he is not afraid of your gun? What if he tries to take it? The easiest way to avoid that bad situation is to simply avoid that situation altogether. Call the police and let them do what they get paid to do. 

Should they have been convicted? I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with what they got convicted of (malice murder) . Manslaughter? Yep. Criminally negligent homicide? Probably. I do not think they intended to kill him when this was set in motion . I think it was reckless and they should well have known that someone might get killed from their actions (pretty much what criminally negligent homicide is) but I don't believe they set out intending to kill the guy. They got convicted largely because they killed a guy who was not a danger to the community (at the time) but who may well have been stealing stuff in the neighborhood. You can't legally shoot people for stealing property ...especially OTHER people's property.  And if your dumbassery (chasing him) set the stage for him trying to take your gun (that's when he was shot) then yeah you are kind of responsible and you are probably going to get convicted. 

Did I miss the part where anyone called him a saint?  

As for the citizen's arrest thing, the problem with all of that is that they DID NOT have a right to affect a citizen's arrest at that point.  The citizen's arrest required probable cause that he had committed a crime within a specific timeframe and that didn't exist (I think it is within the last 24 hours).  They were breaking a law from the onset of their interaction with Arbery.   His past does not matter at that point.  

[Capbyrd]

accidentally doubled. 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Capbyrd

[Erik88]

31 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

Did I miss the part where anyone called him a saint?  

No you didn't. No one here was saying that. 

31 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

As for the citizen's arrest thing, the problem with all of that is that they DID NOT have a right to affect a citizen's arrest at that point.  The citizen's arrest required probable cause that he had committed a crime within a specific timeframe and that didn't exist (I think it is within the last 24 hours).  They were breaking a law from the onset of their interaction with Arbery.   His past does not matter at that point.  

Exactly what I was trying to say. His fingerprints on the gun didn't matter because nothing leading up to that point was legal. It should have been obvious to the prosecutor that there was no valid self defense claim for the shooter.

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

His fingerprints on the gun didn't matter because nothing leading up to that point was legal. 

Was this immediately clear to the responding officers or the prosecutor?  Since the video was not discovered until later, it’s doubtful.  
 

1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

It should have been obvious to the prosecutor that there was no valid self defense claim for the shooter.

It may have been, but the prosecutor was apparently more worried about rescuing her former employee, which has nothing to do with race.  

Edited December 14, 2021 by deerslayer

[Capbyrd]

1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

It should have been obvious to the prosecutor that there was no valid self defense claim for the shooter.

When there is only one party alive to tell the story, NOTHING is immediately clear.  

Once the prosecution team or investigating officers saw the video, however, they should have had a better map of where the investigation should lead. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

which has nothing to do with race.  

I don't know that anyone in this thread was trying to make it about race.  

 

[deerslayer]

4 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

I don't know that anyone in this thread was trying to make it about race.  

 

Talk to Erik88:

”So yeah, I'm fairly confident these guys would have never gone to prison had this not been caught on camera and I'm sure race played a role here.”

Edited December 14, 2021 by deerslayer

[deerslayer]

6 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

When there is only one party alive to tell the story, NOTHING is immediately clear.  

Once the prosecution team or investigating officers saw the video, however, they should have had a better map of where the investigation should lead. 

The McMichaels were arrested two days after the video was released.  But hey, racebaiting is lucrative.  
 

[Capbyrd]

4 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

The McMichaels were arrested two days after the video was released.  But hey, racebaiting is lucrative.  
 

Which was months after the incident.   Didn't the police have the video from day one?  

Regardless, that's more on the prosecution that refused than the police.  And more about cronyism than race.  
 

[deerslayer]

17 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

Which was months after the incident.   Didn't the police have the video from day one?  

Regardless, that's more on the prosecution that refused than the police.  And more about cronyism than race.  
 

I agree with the cronyism regarding the initial prosecutor, but no one (not the cops or the prosecutor or Lebron) apparently knew about the video until an attorney who had spoken with one of the accused released it in May.  The shooting was in February. The video was a game changer.  Someone asked earlier why we needed video to know you can’t stalk and shoot someone. Well, because no one knew anything like stalking had occurred until the video was discovered. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by deerslayer

[Erik88]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the video was necessary to know this wasn't a legal use of force.  

[Capbyrd]

5 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the video was necessary to know this wasn't a legal use of force.  

If there is noone there to dispute the shooter's story, how is it so obvious to you? 

 

[Erik88]

45 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

If there is noone there to dispute the shooter's story, how is it so obvious to you? 

 

For the extra reasons you wrote earlier. Have you changed your mind? 

They had no authority to stalk, pull a gun on, and then kill and unarmed guy. Nothing about that interaction was ok. They are not police. Was their story something different? If so I've missed it. I believe their claim was that he charged them and tried to wrestle the gun away. I lot of people would fight for their life if someone pulls a shotgun on them. I don't see how a video was needed to show this was wrong. In most states you can't do what they did. 

 

 

[Capbyrd]

19 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

For the extra reasons you wrote earlier. Have you changed your mind? 

They had no authority to stalk, pull a gun on, and then kill and unarmed guy. Nothing about that interaction was ok. They are not police. Was their story something different? If so I've missed it. I believe their claim was that he charged them and tried to wrestle the gun away. I lot of people would fight for their life if someone pulls a shotgun on them. I don't see how a video was needed to show this was wrong. In most states you can't do what they did. 

 

 

 

If I shoot and kill someone, and there are no witnesses to dispute it, I can tell the cops whatever I want.  All of the stuff I said doesn't matter if their story is that they were attacked by him and then got the gun and shot.   I'm saying that nothing is obvious.  

 

[deerslayer]

2 hours ago, Erik88 said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the video was necessary to know this wasn't a legal use of force.  

Hopefully you don’t end up on a jury.  It apparently requires little or no evidence to make you form a conclusion. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by deerslayer

[Grayfox54]

23 hours ago, Links2k said:

This thread is about changing times and mindsets. A lot of people better start thinking about what Ken said in the video. Good intentions may cost you your life or your freedom. 

That's why I posted it. Then some of you decided to take it off the deep end.  Geez! 

[deerslayer]

Not a lot of earth-shattering revelations in this video.  Avoid trouble and stupid situations, the cops may not always be there, buy ammo/components before the next run, practice routinely.  Some got their feathers ruffled about whites facing more scrutiny, but this is no new reality.  About the only thing really new is the cops’ attitudes.  I know a couple and one said (pretty much word for word) “if we are now the bad guys and we get in trouble for doing what we are supposed to do, then FFFFFFFFF them.  We don’t have to come.”  But maybe this is what the defunders want.  

[FUJIMO]

33 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

That's why I posted it. Then some of you decided to take it off the deep end.  Geez! 

You new here ?

[Grayfox54]

Not hardly. But I guess I shoulda known better by now. 

This board doesn't have thread drift. It has tsunamis! 

[papa61]

My dad used to say about the law and disputes in general "what's right got to do with it?"

There is/was a tv show called "what would you do?" The point should be not what you think is right but what is legal. Defending oneself happens before during and after you touch your firearm. 

keep your wits about you, study and train. I don't want to read about any of my compatriots being prosecuted for being on the wrong end of an iffy shooting.

[papa61]

On 12/14/2021 at 5:49 PM, Grayfox54 said:

Not hardly. But I guess I shoulda known better by now. 

This board doesn't have thread drift. It has tsunamis! 

[Daniel]

On 12/13/2021 at 3:15 PM, Erik88 said:

We have plenty of facts here but my initial post didn't accuse anyone of that. I just said that had their not been a video they wouldn't have been charged. To me, that's wrong. I don't know how we need video to know you can't stalk and shoot someone just because you think they may be a burglar.

I grew up in small town TN. Within the last ten years I knew cops in that town that would share stores of other cops harassing black people. One told me they "had to violate people's rights to catch the bad guys." So I'm not sorry for believing that in small town GA, race wasn't a factor in these charges being delayed.  That doesn't mean I believe every cry of racism we hear now but I can see why people were angry about this one. 

That is the thing.  We are about 98% white if not more here.  We all know other white people who say racist #### without dropping a beat.  At best some of them might look left or right before they say it which means they at least know it's wrong or are worried who will hear them.  This irritates me more because I dont want to get pulled into their racism.

[Garufa]

13 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 This irritates me more because I dint want to get pulled into their racism.

Then don’t listen to them.  Disregard their opinions. Move along.  Problem solved.

i guess you’re of the opinion everything  should be presented or said in the guise of racial justice.  

 

 

[peejman]

14 hours ago, Garufa said:

Then don’t listen to them.  Disregard their opinions. Move along.  Problem solved.

The world would be a happier place if more people would do this.  

[Daniel]

20 hours ago, Garufa said:

Then don’t listen to them.  Disregard their opinions. Move along.  Problem solved.

i guess you’re of the opinion everything  should be presented or said in the guise of racial justice.  

 

 

Yes ignoring the problem instead of confronting it is the solution.