The New Reality

[Grayfox54]

I saw this on another forum and thought it was so good that I should share it here. 

 

[Nikiski Dave]

The truth.

[OLDNEWBIE]

Avoidance was always the best if possible. Don't want to escalate a bad scene.

What you happen to see is rarely the whole situation. Big guy pounding on little guy might just be attempting to get his stolen wallet back for example but... 

Nowadays unfortunately, you might want to avoid interjecting yourself even in the most obvious example of a justified deadly force situation.

In case anyone hasn't been paying attention the last 10 years or so you might want to hesitate drawing a weapon untill you....

Consider the State,Town, your race, their race, religion, your social media posts going back decades etc., etc......

Basically consider the trial in this upside down age should it come to that. Hard choice but defending a victim could easily get you locked away forever if you fit a certain demonized stereotype.

[Links2k]

7 hours ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

could easily get you locked away forever if you fit a certain demonized stereotype.
 

 

For some this may feel like the new reality (Ken mentioned the white male and the police), but imagine a lifetime of feeling like this on a daily basis. Sucks a** doesn’t it? You just have to suck it up. Life goes on. 

I do agree that avoidance is always the answer. To a scared witness/bystander, you may be the only person they see with a weapon. I don’t want to be that guy. I also no longer plan to be a good eyewitness.  My priority is my safety and the the safety of my family.  The cops will get whatever information I gather while leaving the area. 
 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Links2k

[OLDNEWBIE]

3 hours ago, Links2k said:

For some this may feel like the new reality (Ken mentioned the white male and the police), but imagine a lifetime of feeling like this on a daily basis. Sucks a** doesn’t it? You just have to suck it up. Life goes on. 

Unfortunately for many a victim of violent crime, black, white whatever, because of the new reality, a white Samaritan with a gun is not as likely to intervene. 

It's the victim who will suffer and have to suck it up, not the armed would be Samaritan. For now if he just uses his weapon only when protecting himself or family in an unavoidable situation he's still staying out of court hopefully. 

In the end though, everyone suffers as race has become the number one factor in gun defense cases. It's just a tool to take away rights through intimidation by the threat of legal persecution.

Don't forget the end game is to remove gun rights from every citizen. Not just the stereotype targeted in the media now. 

 

 

[Links2k]

2 hours ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

 

It's the victim who will suffer and have to suck it up, not the armed would be Samaritan. For now if he just uses his weapon only when protecting himself or family in an unavoidable situation he's still staying out of court hopefully. 

In the end though, everyone suffers as race has become the number one factor in gun defense cases. It's just a tool to take away rights through intimidation by the threat of legal persecution.

 

 

All I know is there are three guys in Georgia who just got  convicted of murder while having illusions of being “good samaritans” when they should have minded their business and called the cops. 
 

I am not law enforcement. Living in Memphis has taught me to mind my own business. I’ll leave the hero stuff to the cops and people wishing to be killed, jailed and/or financially ruined. I’m middle aged, and don’t want to ruin my comfortable life playing Charles Bronson. 
 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Links2k

[OLDNEWBIE]

2 hours ago, Links2k said:

All I know is there are three guys in Georgia who just got  convicted of murder while having illusions of being “good samaritans” when they should have minded their business and called the cops. 

No argument there, property especially others property doesn't warrant showing up, chasing with a gun. 

If you happen upon a maniac slashing people up with a machete in the grocery store though...

I'd hope someone would shoot him.

I'd hope I would not hesitate and mentally debate the politics of the City I'm in, the maniacs race, my race, the future trial should I be charged.

But chances are I might.

[deerslayer]

11 hours ago, Links2k said:

All I know is there are three guys in Georgia who just got  convicted of murder while having illusions of being “good samaritans” when they should have minded their business and called the cops. 

And a jury with 11 white people convicted them for murder.  They may not have even been charged 40 or 50 years ago.  Things are by no means fixed, but are a lot better than they were in the past.  

[Erik88]

1 hour ago, deerslayer said:

And a jury with 11 white people convicted them for murder.  They may not have even been charged 40 or 50 years ago.  Things are by no means fixed, but are a lot better than they were in the past.  

40-50 years ago? Hell, they likely wouldn't have been charged had it not been on video. Cops didn't do anything until it went viral and people got outraged. 

[OLDNEWBIE]

Video, another worry... 

Will your justified good Samaritan intervention be recorded or witnessed with bystanders?

If justified without a shadow of doubt you want a video. But many times there won't be one.

Unfortunately we are getting used to videos of these shootings and without video proof you could hang for doing the right thing.

Another reason to walk away or at least learn to be aware of the fallout of every situation before involving yourself. Most people, me included can't think that fast.

 

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

40-50 years ago? Hell, they likely wouldn't have been charged had it not been on video. Cops didn't do anything until it went viral and people got outraged. 

Sounds similar to the Chad Read shooting in Lubbock, TX.  Murky video evidence and an initially unclear scenario.  

[E4 No More]

2 hours ago, Erik88 said:

40-50 years ago? Hell, they likely wouldn't have been charged had it not been on video. Cops didn't do anything until it went viral and people got outraged. 

Since you have a copious amount law enforcement experience and know the details of what the cops knew, why don't you regale us with what you would have done differently.

[Erik88]

32 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

Since you have a copious amount law enforcement experience and know the details of what the cops knew, why don't you regale us with what you would have done differently.

I probably should have said prosecutors in my last post. You're former law enforcement. Two bubba's chased and then pulled a gun on an unarmed black dude jogging in their neighborhood. What would you have done had you been the responding officer? I believe their claim was that he tried to wrestle their gun away. That doesn't even matter if they didn't have grounds to pull a gun on him to begin with. 

You know the initial prosecutor on the case has been charged with a few crimes related to this right? She's accused of protecting the shooters.

So yeah, I'm fairly confident these guys would have never gone to prison had this not been caught on camera and I'm sure race played a role here. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Erik88

[deerslayer]

11 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

You know the initial prosecutor on the case has been charged with a few crimes related to this right? She's accused of protecting the shooters.

So yeah, I'm fairly confident these guys would have never gone to prison had this not been caught on camera and I'm sure race played a role here. 

Yep, one of defendants used to work with her and she recused herself a little late.  Got herself voted out of office as a result.  Not cool, but not sure how race was a factor.  

[E4 No More]

36 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I probably should have said prosecutors in my last post. You're former law enforcement. Two bubba's chased and then pulled a gun on an unarmed black dude jogging in their neighborhood. What would you have done had you been the responding officer? I believe their claim was that he tried to wrestle their gun away. That doesn't even matter if they didn't have grounds to pull a gun on him to begin with. 

You know the initial prosecutor on the case has been charged with a few crimes related to this right? She's accused of protecting the shooters.

So yeah, I'm fairly confident these guys would have never gone to prison had this not been caught on camera and I'm sure race played a role here. 

 

 

Prosecutor would have been accurate since they are the ones who decide whether to prosecute a case to begin with.

I do not pretend to know the facts of the police response other than the first officer on scene saying that Aubrey was obviously dead when he got there. That means, (without any other witnesses), that the cop got only the one side of the story. Unless there's physical evidence to indicate otherwise the prosecutor only has one side with which to make a prosecutorial decision based on local laws and precedents that I'm confident neither of us are aware of. Then there's forensics that could easily backup the shooter's claim such as, Aubrey's fingerprints on the shotgun validating the claim that Aubrey tried to disarm the shooter, and powder burns around the wounds that would demonstrate how close the shooter was to Aubrey.

May I remind you that the police, (and apparently the prosecutor), only knew of the other side of the story after seeing the video once the suspect's lawyer released it to the public. When I saw it I got pissed, (almost as much as I did seeing what Chauvin did), and if I were the responding officer and saw that video at the scene there would have been 3 suspects in custody in patrol cars.

I get tired of people without evidence throwing the police under the bus every time something happens that they don't like.

 

EDIT: I would also like to point out that I have gone into hundreds of houses under construction without the direct consent of the contractors/owners and have never been accused to burglary. The majority of contractors that I have known love it because it's free advertising for them. I would certainly become hostile if bubba, (be he black or white), chased me down and accused me while pointing a shotgun at my chest. But I'd also know better than to escalate the situation.

Edited December 13, 2021 by E4 No More

[E4 No More]

17 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

 Not cool, but not sure how race was a factor.  

Exactly. I also get tired of people accusing others of racism without any facts to substantiate their claims.

[Erik88]

2 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

Exactly. I also get tired of people accusing others of racism without any facts to substantiate their claims.

We have plenty of facts here but my initial post didn't accuse anyone of that. I just said that had their not been a video they wouldn't have been charged. To me, that's wrong. I don't know how we need video to know you can't stalk and shoot someone just because you think they may be a burglar.

I grew up in small town TN. Within the last ten years I knew cops in that town that would share stores of other cops harassing black people. One told me they "had to violate people's rights to catch the bad guys." So I'm not sorry for believing that in small town GA, race wasn't a factor in these charges being delayed.  That doesn't mean I believe every cry of racism we hear now but I can see why people were angry about this one. 

[Erik88]

18 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

Then there's forensics that could easily backup the shooter's claim such as, Aubrey's fingerprints on the shotgun validating the claim that Aubrey tried to disarm the shooter, and powder burns around the wounds that would demonstrate how close the shooter was to Aubrey.

That shouldn't even matter. At that point Aubrey was defending himself because they had no justification for pulling a gun on him. If I go jogging and two guys pull a gun on me I'm probably going to try to defend myself. 

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

We have plenty of facts here but my initial post didn't accuse anyone of that. I just said that had their not been a video they wouldn't have been charged. To me, that's wrong. I don't know how we need video to know you can't stalk and shoot someone just because you think they may be a burglar.

I grew up in small town TN. Within the last ten years I knew cops in that town that would share stores of other cops harassing black people. One told me they "had to violate people's rights to catch the bad guys." So I'm not sorry for believing that in small town GA, race wasn't a factor in these charges being delayed.  That doesn't mean I believe every cry of racism we hear now but I can see why people were angry about this one. 

I wasn't referring to you.

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

That shouldn't even matter. At that point Aubrey was defending himself because they had no justification for pulling a gun on him.

You absolutely did NOT know that until you saw the video, but thanks for judging.

[Links2k]

3 hours ago, E4 No More said:

Since you have a copious amount law enforcement experience and know the details of what the cops knew, why don't you regale us with what you would have done differently.

The local prosecutor in this town had pretty much swept this case under the rug. An attorney friend of one of the killers leaked the video.  As @Erik88said, without the video these guys would still be at home potentially playing super cop in their neighborhood. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

OK , lets not fall into the "upstanding citizen of color gunned down while minding his own business" false narrative. Arbery was caught with a gun in a high school basketball game and arrested in 2013, was arrested for trying to steal a TV from Walmart in 2017, had mental issues (diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder after a 2018 incident ) where his mom had to call the police on him where she warned the dispatcher that responding officers should be careful because he would become violent if the police were confrontational...... so lets just stop the "he was a pillar of the community" stuff.

 

According to WTOC 11 in Savannah ....."

Arbery pleaded guilty to charges he carried a gun onto a high school campus in 2013, a year after he graduated. Rodney Ellis, police chief for the Glynn County school system, testified at Wednesday’s hearing that Arbery tried to evade officers on foot and stopped only when two of them pointed guns at him.

He was also arrested in 2017 on charges that he tried to steal a TV from a Walmart store. Court records show he pleaded guilty to shoplifting. Arbery was on probation at the time of his death." 

Being on probation from the shoplifting conviction might be a good reason to not submit to citizens arrest....He was also locally known to convenience store owners as "The Jogger " who would jog up in front of convenience stores and stop and stretch and then run inside , steal merchandise and run off. 

Now as to the three dumbasses that killed him.....Unlike Tennessee where you can't legally use lethal force to make a citizens arrest . under the confusing and poorly written GA law at the time of the killing it was LEGAL to use lethal force to perform a citizens arrest. That does not mean it was wise. These guys should have IMMEDIATELY called 911 and let the people who get paid to do that kind of thing arrest him. He was not committing a violent felony that needed to be stopped immediately so just get on the phone and don't go chasing him. Unfortunately emotions got the better of logic and chase was on. 

Now if we want to argue that the defendants were tired of stuff getting stolen in the neighborhood and that they had seen him there more than once (and he had actually been caught on at least 5 different dates on surveillance camera inside a house under construction in the Satilla Shores) then OK fine,  but just like the angry dog chasing the car....what exactly did you plan to do with the car once you catch it?  These guys were not just out cruising around looking for black joggers to shoot. They were chasing him specifically because they (right or wrongly ) thought he specifically was the one responsible for all the petty theft going on in that neighborhood. And MAYBE he was .... we do not KNOW for sure that he wasn't. 

But like I tell everyone that will listen....you REALLY need to have a very short and very well thought out and reasoned list of things you are willing to kill people over because once you interject the gun someone may well die. Even if you are within the law (and the way the confusing citizens arrest statute at the time was written they arguably were ) when the chase begins , are you prepared for what may happen if you corner him and he does not submit peacefully? What if he is not afraid of your gun? What if he tries to take it? The easiest way to avoid that bad situation is to simply avoid that situation altogether. Call the police and let them do what they get paid to do. 

Should they have been convicted? I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with what they got convicted of (malice murder) . Manslaughter? Yep. Criminally negligent homicide? Probably. I do not think they intended to kill him when this was set in motion . I think it was reckless and they should well have known that someone might get killed from their actions (pretty much what criminally negligent homicide is) but I don't believe they set out intending to kill the guy. They got convicted largely because they killed a guy who was not a danger to the community (at the time) but who may well have been stealing stuff in the neighborhood. You can't legally shoot people for stealing property ...especially OTHER people's property.  And if your dumbassery (chasing him) set the stage for him trying to take your gun (that's when he was shot) then yeah you are kind of responsible and you are probably going to get convicted. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Links2k]

8 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

OK , lets not fall into the "upstanding citizen of color gunned down while minding his own business" false narrative. Arbery was caught with a gun in a high school basketball game and arrested in 2013, was arrested for trying to steal a TV from Walmart in 2017, had mental issues (diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder after a 2018 incident ) where his mom had to call the police on him where she warned the dispatcher that responding officers should be careful because he would become violent if the police were confrontational...... so lets just stop the "he was a pillar of the community" stuff.

 

According to WTOC 11 in Savannah ....."

Arbery pleaded guilty to charges he carried a gun onto a high school campus in 2013, a year after he graduated. Rodney Ellis, police chief for the Glynn County school system, testified at Wednesday’s hearing that Arbery tried to evade officers on foot and stopped only when two of them pointed guns at him.

He was also arrested in 2017 on charges that he tried to steal a TV from a Walmart store. Court records show he pleaded guilty to shoplifting. Arbery was on probation at the time of his death." 

Being on probation from the shoplifting conviction might be a good reason to not submit to citizens arrest....He was also locally known to convenience store owners as "The Jogger " who would jog up in front of convenience stores and stop and stretch and then run inside , steal merchandise and run off. 

Now as to the three dumbasses that killed him.....Unlike Tennessee where you can't legally use lethal force to make a citizens arrest . under the confusing and poorly written GA law at the time of the killing it was LEGAL to use lethal force to perform a citizens arrest. That does not mean it was wise. These guys should have IMMEDIATELY called 911 and let the people who get paid to do that kind of thing arrest him. He was not committing a violent felony that needed to be stopped immediately so just get on the phone and don't go chasing him. Unfortunately emotions got the better of logic and chase was on. 

Now if we want to argue that the defendants were tired of stuff getting stolen in the neighborhood and that they had seen him there more than once (and he had actually been caught on at least 5 different dates on surveillance camera inside a house under construction in the Satilla Shores) then OK fine,  but just like the angry dog chasing the car....what exactly did you plan to do with the car once you catch it?  These guys were not just out cruising around looking for black joggers to shoot. They were chasing him specifically because they (right or wrongly ) thought he specifically was the one responsible for all the petty theft going on in that neighborhood. And MAYBE he was .... we do not KNOW for sure that he wasn't. 

But like I tell everyone that will listen....you REALLY need to have a very short and very well thought out and reasoned list of things you are willing to kill people over because once you interject the gun someone may well die. Even if you are within the law (and the way the confusing citizens arrest statute at the time was written they arguably were ) when the chase begins , are you prepared for what may happen if you corner him and he does not submit peacefully? What if he is not afraid of your gun? What if he tries to take it? The easiest way to avoid that bad situation is to simply avoid that situation altogether. Call the police and let them do what they get paid to do. 

Should they have been convicted? I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with what they got convicted of (malice murder) . Manslaughter? Yep. Criminally negligent homicide? Probably. I do not think they intended to kill him when this was set in motion . I think it was reckless and they should well have known that someone might get killed from their actions (pretty much what criminally negligent homicide is) but I don't believe they set out intending to kill the guy. They got convicted largely because they killed a guy who was not a danger to the community (at the time) but who may well have been stealing stuff in the neighborhood. You can't legally shoot people for stealing property ...especially OTHER people's property.  And if your dumbassery (chasing him) set the stage for him trying to take your gun (that's when he was shot) then yeah you are kind of responsible and you are probably going to get convicted. 

At the end of day, the dead man was still the victim in THIS situation regardless of his past. I can’t argue with your expertise. I simply hope if I’m gunned down in a similar situation no one brings up the sh*t I did as a teen, in my early twenties or while serving in the army to justify my death. 
 

I agree that the three murderers didn’t think about the consequences of their actions.  The guy who made the video stopped working on his porch, walked inside his home to retrieve his truck keys to follow the pursuit. He could just as easily called 911, and perhaps he would be enjoying the holidays with his family. 

[Links2k]

17 hours ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

No argument there, property especially others property doesn't warrant showing up, chasing with a gun. 

If you happen upon a maniac slashing people up with a machete in the grocery store though...

I'd hope someone would shoot him.

I'd hope I would not hesitate and mentally debate the politics of the City I'm in, the maniacs race, my race, the future trial should I be charged.

But chances are I might.

There are simply too many variables to consider before injecting oneself into a potentially deadly situation. What if the guy swinging the machete is a store clerk defending himself against a flash mob? You just walked up and placed yourself in a position of potentially killing an innocent person defending himself. 
 

This thread is about changing times and mindsets. A lot of people better start thinking about what Ken said in the video. Good intentions may cost you your life or your freedom. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Links2k

[Cruel Hand Luke]

3 hours ago, Links2k said:

I simply hope if I’m gunned down in a similar situation no one brings up the sh*t I did as a teen, in my early twenties or while serving in the army to justify my death. 
 

 

I hope you don’t think that by pointing out his arrest record I was  justifying his death. If he was the one stealing the stuff in the neighborhood ( and no one as far as I know has conclusively proved he was not) then he should have been arrested by the police and tried in court for it ..... not shot during an ill conceived attempt at a citizens arrest.
 

I’m not using the truth of his recent past and current suspicious behavior to justify anything . I’m merely pointing out that this was not just some random jogger minding his own business who got shot as was being portrayed in most of the mainstream media. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Cruel Hand Luke