We’ll this never happened before!

[gregintenn]

I was unloading my deer rifle after hunting today, and the shell came out but the bullet stayed in the chamber, dumping powder into the chamber and magazine. That does not give one a warm and fuzzy feeling. Investigation ongoing.

[Darrell]

Was it a reload?  

If the OAL is a bit long the bolt can push the bullet into the lands hard enough to leave the bullet behind. Not common, but certainly not unheard of.  If you've got reloads, then you probably didn't get the bullet seated quite deeply enough and perhaps had too little crimp.  If they are factory loads, they you might consider complaining to the manufacturer. 

[Quavodus]

Was it seated out a little long? If so, maybe grabbed grooves and held on, pulling out of case. Never had that happen but, have heard it can happen.

[Grunt67]

24 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I was unloading my deer rifle after hunting today, and the shell came out but the bullet stayed in the chamber, dumping powder into the chamber and magazine. That does not give one a warm and fuzzy feeling. Investigation ongoing.

Can't turn my back on you for a minute without getting into something,  LOL.

[gregintenn]

38 minutes ago, Quavodus said:

Was it seated out a little long? If so, maybe grabbed grooves and held on, pulling out of case. Never had that happen but, have heard it can happen.

They are hand loads. I checked the rest of them and they were a couple of thousandths shorter than what the manual calls for. Without adjusting the seating did, I reloaded the offending round, and it measured the same. I’ve been shooting this load in this same rifle for more than 30 years now.

One possibility is that the ammo wallet I carry them in has elastic loops that hole the shells. I’ve noticed this leaves a tacky feel on the ammo. Maybe that was enough to cause a problem? I can’t get it to happen again.
 

[gregintenn]

Another thought.

You know how you have to trim rifle brass? We’ll, that brass comes from somewhere. I think the sizing die pulls the neck and stretches it. Would this make the neck thinner over time? I wonder if that might cause me to have less neck tension.

Maybe my brass is shot?

[Grunt67]

8 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Another thought.

You know how you have to trim rifle brass? We’ll, that brass comes from somewhere. I think the sizing die pulls the neck and stretches it. Would this make the neck thinner over time? I wonder if that might cause me to have less neck tension.

Maybe my brass is shot?

Could be. Any idea how many times they've been loaded?

[gregintenn]

Just now, Grunt67 said:

Could be. Any idea how many times they've been loaded?

No idea. Probably too many.

[DO-TN]

We there a crimp? Lee makes a die for dealing with this. you can go anywhere from a smooth taper crimp all the way to a heavy roll crimp. 

[Darrell]

9 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Without adjusting the seating did, I reloaded the offending round, and it measured the same.

And did you then cycle the cartridge successfully?

The only reason the bullet would remain behind is that it was pushed into the lands, and the tension of the lands was great enough to overcome the tension of the mouth of the case. The rule I follow is that the OAL of the cartridge should be no greater than the bullet just touching the lands, and usually a couple of thousands less. You can test this pretty easily by loading a dummy round (no powder or primer and no crimp) and "painting" a bullet with a felt pen. Leave it a bit long, chamber it into your rifle so that the bullet is pushed into the case. If the bullet is left behind then the case will have marked the deepest penetration of the bullet by scratching the felt pen marking you made. If the bullet comes out with the cartridge then you can measure directly. 

You just need to seat a couple thou deeper into the case and maybe crimp a little tighter. 

And case necks do become thinner over the course of many reloads. The hotter the load, the more the case may stretch. But it's been my experience that the neck will split when it becomes brittle from over-work. I don't think you'd ever reach a point where the neck became too thin to hold the bullet, more likely the brass would split at the neck first.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Darrell

[gregintenn]

I did cycle the cartridge several times. Maybe I need to seat a bit deeper to make sure this doesn’t happen again.

[Darrell]

2 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I did cycle the cartridge several times.

In that case it may be that the one bullet that stuck just didn't get fully seated. Perhaps you didn't cycle the press fully. If you have other cartridges from that batch of reloads, and all of them will cycle correctly with no marks on the bullet, then my guess is that you had a one-off failure to seat fully. That would also account for a lighter crimp. 

It's always best to be critical of reload failures and figure out the cause. Sounds like you have it under control.

[gregintenn]

Now I do not crimp unless the bullet has a crimp groove. Never needed to. I did notice a couple more of my rounds felt sticky when I cycled them through the action. Maybe I just need to seat them all a touch deeper.

 

What I really don’t understand is the fact I am already shorter than what is called for in the reloading manual, and why this problem hasn’t surfaced before.

This is a model 70 Winchester chambered in 280 Remington. (A factory gun; not a custom barrel with a short chamber.). I am using 140 grain Sierra bullets and a Sierra manual. I know bullets can have different ogives between styles and manufacturers. The fact that I am using the load data for this exact bullet should take that possibility off the table.

Edited December 9, 2021 by gregintenn

[RED333]

When I reload a new (I know this is not a new rifle to you or reload) I put just the bullet into the chamber and give it a lite tap with a brass rod from the breech end. Then I measure from the muzzle to the point on the bullet with a brass rod. Next I knock out the bullet, close the bolt and measure to the face on the bolt. Do the math and this gives me the length for a correct MAX OAL for that bullet in that chamber. Seat a little deeper for more jump to the lands. Now the more jump is not always a good thing. Some reloaders like to make their reloads bore riders.

[deerslayer]

I had the same problem with my 70 years ago.  I used some reloading book OAL handloads for my dad’s M77 and couldn’t extract a round I chambered after shooting a deer.  I did a quick tactical unload and scratched my head.  Turns out the 70 chamber was slightly shorter than the 77, so the 70 loads got seated a little deeper after that.  Nowadays I figure all that out before even getting the powder out.  
 

Also, some measure from the ogive because bullet lengths can vary, but ogives are pretty consistent.  

Edited December 9, 2021 by deerslayer

[gregintenn]

So I’ll go shorter. I still find it odd it took 30 years for this problem to show up.

Thanks for all the help guys!

[Grayfox54]

Possibly just a fluke. I've noticed that when loading ammo that OAL can vary a  thosandth or two from round to round. Could be that particular case, bullet, dies, the press or maybe you just accidentally short stroked the ram a hair when seating that one round . That one just came out a tad bit on the long side. Might not ever happen again.  

[Dirtshooter]

Greg, as others have said, maybe a tad too long. Take some of your other loaded rounds and see if you can push the bullet further into the brass by pushing it into a wooden block by hand, possibly neck tension isn't enough.

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, Dirtshooter said:

Greg, as others have said, maybe a tad too long. Take some of your other loaded rounds and see if you can push the bullet further into the brass by pushing it into a wooden block by hand, possibly neck tension isn't enough.

Hello stranger! Haven’t seen you on here in a while.

[RED333]

On 12/9/2021 at 9:56 AM, gregintenn said:

So I’ll go shorter. I still find it odd it took 30 years for this problem to show up.

Thanks for all the help guys!

What about a ring just where the lands start?

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, RED333 said:

What about a ring just where the lands start?

I can’t see anything, but also can’t see as well as I once did. What would cause that?

[RED333]

6 hours ago, gregintenn said:

I can’t see anything, but also can’t see as well as I once did. What would cause that?

You might need a bore scope, I do not have one, I would like to have one. Here is some reading you will need to understand what a "ring in the barrel is".

https://alphamunitions.com/carbon-ring-build-up-resulting-problems-and-a-cure/

Though I’ve heard mention of carbon ring build-up it wasn’t until I got to the 6 Creedmoor portion of the large/small rifle primer comparison (last Kauber’s Corner article) was I aware first hand of the problems caused by carbon (powder residue) build up in the bore.

An established carbon ring manifests itself with sudden and progressive spikes in pressure; pressures bordering on the dangerous and in most cases degradation inaccuracy will result. The tremendous amount of heat and pressure transforms carbon fouling into a ceramic coating that is difficult to remove once it has welded itself in your rifling.

[jpx2rk]

Google Teslong, it's a relatively inexpensive bore scope (<$100) with a small viewing screen or models that work with laptops/tablets.  They work good, and will show you how well you are NOT cleaning your barrel.  You can see all of the stuff inside the bore you always wondered about, and more.  

I now have the model with the small viewing screen and flexible shaft, works well, I've been working on removing some carbon rings in several of my older guns, that resulted from poor cleaning procedures on my part.  

I have heard/read where carbon rings can cause pressure spikes, resulting in blown primers, indicating hot loads, etc., when really the cause was poor gun maintenance.  

[RED333]

1 hour ago, jpx2rk said:

Google Teslong

Thanks, going to look into them

[Mowgli Terry]

I have to go along with the long round. I had that happen with a rechambered 40X Remington. The bullets was seated out. Bullet wedged into lands. Presto, stuck bullet. I also suggest loading by the rifle for COL. Going by the manual for charges us right. Load for COL may leave you with a stuck bullet. On the other hand being seated too deep makes, functionally a long throat. I have been shooting high powered rifles for many years. I have never see a carbon ring-period. I don't look at the net much.