Electric Vehicles

[Chucktshoes]

41 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

The premise of the EV was to save money. That is a total lie. That was just one example, so let's look at more.

Another problem is paying $5,000 to $7,000 for a plug to be installed at your home. Cap that with the fact that their short range means you have to workout the logistics behind more than a couple hours of drive time. If the vehicle doesn't have sufficient travel distance then you have to stay somewhere for 10 hours while your vehicle recharges. So I couldn't take a day trip to Kansas City because the vehicle doesn't have sufficient range. I'd have to stay at a hotel that actually has available charging stations. Even if they had 600 mile range to get me to KC, I'd still have to install a charging station at my mother-in-law's house at another $5,000 to $7,000.

Your charging times are grossly outdated. For example, Tesla superchargers will charge a vehicle from 0 to 80% in 30 minutes, and to 100% in 90. 

[Omega]

2 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Your charging times are grossly outdated. For example, Tesla superchargers will charge a vehicle from 0 to 80% in 30 minutes, and to 100% in 90. 

Was that independently validated, or a Tesla test?  Seems weird that the last 20% would take an hour and the previous 80% only thirty minutes.  But here is another issue I have seen, the public charging stations usually only have about three or four charging units, so if there were a bunch of cars on the road, waiting in line would have to be factored in.  Only a few times I could remember that I got to pull right up to one of the many pumps at a gas station, the last time I was behind three vehicles, at say 30-90 minutes each...yea, NO.

[Chucktshoes]

11 minutes ago, Omega said:

Was that independently validated, or a Tesla test?  Seems weird that the last 20% would take an hour and the previous 80% only thirty minutes.  But here is another issue I have seen, the public charging stations usually only have about three or four charging units, so if there were a bunch of cars on the road, waiting in line would have to be factored in.  Only a few times I could remember that I got to pull right up to one of the many pumps at a gas station, the last time I was behind three vehicles, at say 30-90 minutes each...yea, NO.

Charging of EVs like Teslas isn’t as straight forward as charging a simple rechargeable AA. The energy throughput from the charger to the vehicle varies throughout the process and is affected by things such as temperature and how charged the battery is. Since we are comparing it to ICE vehicles, think of it like this. When you are filling an empty tank, you can max out the flow from the nozzle initially. As you get to a fuller tank, you have to slow the flow to be able to top it off and get the tank completely full. While the reasons why the phenomenon is the same in EVs is different, the functional outcome is the same. 
 

As far as the availability of superchargers, the support infrastructure is growing alongside the demand. I’ve seen multiple stations out west where EVs are much more common that have as many charging stalls as a Buc-ees has pumps. 

[E4 No More]

44 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Your charging times are grossly outdated. For example, Tesla superchargers will charge a vehicle from 0 to 80% in 30 minutes, and to 100% in 90. 

Tesla takes an even different charging station, so you are still mostly SCREWED.

[Chucktshoes]

@Erik88Yup. I see your point about opposition to EVs being based mostly on emotion than facts. 

[Garufa]

1 hour ago, Chucktshoes said:

@Erik88Yup. I see your point about opposition to EVs being based mostly on emotion than facts. 

A lot of opposition is emotional but much of it does have some basis in reality, depending on the source.

EV’s have definitely come a long way in a very short time but are constantly evolving.  We have seen the same with computers, communications, phones, etc. over the past 20-30 years if not longer but everyone knows those are disposable and relatively inexpensive in the grand scheme of things depending on need.

While combustion engine vehicles are pretty much disposable, they can still be made to run for decades, as long as they don’t have a bunch of complicated electronics, or at least replacement part cannot be found for.

EV’s are expensive.  Regular vehicles are expensive.  Not everyone can just run out and buy a rolling iPhone and expect to keep it forever.  That battery is going to go bad at some point… and it’s going to be expensive to replace. 

Many older people who are retired or are soon to be there simply cannot afford to go out and buy a fancy new EV, much less have to repair it a few years down the road.  I’d say many of them are set with the  vehicle they’d got and may have planned it that way.

There are tremendous amounts of people these days that can barely afford rent.  No way they are going to find cheap transportation in an EV world.

And all those people that live out in the boonies with no charging solutions are going to be screwed until they buy their own and pay the electric bill…or hope the local government and some business puts in charging stations for them.  I see a lot of backwoods communities resisting that with a passion…because emotions.
 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Garufa

[Chucktshoes]

16 hours ago, Garufa said:

A lot of opposition is emotional but much of it does have some basis in reality, depending on the source.

EV’s have definitely come a long way in a very short time but are constantly evolving.  We have seen the same with computers, communications, phones, etc. over the past 20-30 years if not longer but everyone knows those are disposable and relatively inexpensive in the grand scheme of things depending on need.

While combustion engine vehicles are pretty much disposable, they can still be made to run for decades, as long as they don’t have a bunch of complicated electronics, or at least replacement part cannot be found for.

EV’s are expensive.  Regular vehicles are expensive.  Not everyone can just run out and buy a rolling iPhone and expect to keep it forever.  That battery is going to go bad at some point… and it’s going to be expensive to replace. 

Many older people who are retired or are soon to be there simply cannot afford to go out and buy a fancy new EV, much less have to repair it a few years down the road.  I’d say many of them are set with the  vehicle they’d got and may have planned it that way.

There are tremendous amounts of people these days that can barely afford rent.  No way they are going to find cheap transportation in an EV world.

And all those people that live out in the boonies with no charging solutions are going to be screwed until they buy their own and pay the electric bill…or hope the local government and some business puts in charging stations for them.  I see a lot of backwoods communities resisting that with a passion…because emotions.
 

 

There’s not a word you type that I would disagree with. I am a proponent of moving toward EVs. That said, I do not in anyway think that the infrastructure is there to support a total changeover at this time. Rural areas will be using ICE vehicles for decades to come. I understand how long it took to electrify the rural areas of this country and I don’t believe that any other new infrastructure will take less time. Hell, just look at the thread we have regarding Internet access in certain areas, as well as the fact that providing POTS lines to the entirety of the country took up into the 70s or 80s.

I just see a vast difference between looking at a technology that is obviously the future,  being excited and hopeful for what it portends and writing it off as crap because it isn’t everything we want or need to be in this moment.

 

So if somebody is at or nearing retirement age, and especially if they live in a rural area, an EV probably isn’t in their future. There’s a good chance it will be in their children’s or grandchildren’s, and their lives will be better for it.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Chucktshoes

[gregintenn]

I picture an evacuation route coming out of New Orleans clogged with dead electric cars as a cat 5 hurricane closes it.

Not a time a fella wants to hunt a charging station!

[RKRider1954]

[Erik88]

25 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I picture an evacuation route coming out of New Orleans clogged with dead electric cars as a cat 5 hurricane closes it.

Not a time a fella wants to hunt a charging station!

To be fair, I've seen those evacuation lines full of cars that ran out of gas too. 

[gregintenn]

35 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

To be fair, I've seen those evacuation lines full of cars that ran out of gas too. 

Sure, but it would be a lot easier to bring them a can of gas than a can of electricity.

[E4 No More]

11 hours ago, Erik88 said:

To be fair, I've seen those evacuation lines full of cars that ran out of gas too. 

Yes, towing the EV's that couldn't make it out of the city guzzles gas.

[Grayfox54]

Just saw a story on the evening news about the down side of EVs. One item that caught my attention was they said that the EV owners on average use more electricity charging their car over a week than their entire house uses in the same time.

Yep, and we need to cut back out A/C because the power grid is overloaded. 

[Garufa]

1 hour ago, Grayfox54 said:

Just saw a story on the evening news about the down side of EVs. One item that caught my attention was they said that the EV owners on average use more electricity charging their car over a week than their entire house uses in the same time.

Yep, and we need to cut back out A/C because the power grid is overloaded. 

But if you put a windmill in the backyard and solar panels all over your roof then you can charge it up for “free”.

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, Garufa said:

But if you put a windmill in the backyard and solar panels all over your roof then you can charge it up for “free”.

Do you want me to start ranting about how solar and wind are a scam again? Because this is how you do it.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Chucktshoes

[Erich]

4 hours ago, Garufa said:

But if you put a windmill in the backyard and solar panels all over your roof then you can charge it up for “free”.

That may have been tongue in cheek, but it turns out its really a thing! Good case of demographics matter.

I've been spending some time on the truck forums where the Lightening is a favorite target for those opposed. To hear Lightening buyers responses, you get some good insights about their specific situations.

A significant number of EV buyers do have solar and or added more solar. In many areas new homes for the last several years come with solar and surplus is sold back to the grid at times. Those are the demos that you will see more adoption of EV, in some cases multiple EVs in a household. While the solar addition to a home is not free, if its part of lifestyle choices amortized over several years and vehicles, there are places it can make sense if you are so inclined. 

The 22 F150 hybrid powerboost I ordered (as  '21) finally came last month. When I picked it up, they wouldn't let me leave until I drove their demo Lightening. I have zero interesting in a full EV, not out here especially. They were insistent it was really fast. 30 years on sportbikes, looking at a big heavy truck, thinking not so much.

Gotta tell ya, it surprised me. Its was stupid quick. Had a ball taking it for a spin, laughing to myself a couple times. I did not know its specs but afterward I found it has 775 ft-lbs of torque, so it made much more sense.

While I wouldn't want one, I appreciate they can offer it and things like this will only improve the breed going forward.

I am more opposed to some monitoring features they are building in. And the advent of subscription based features and services as they look for recurring revenue streams beyond initial sale. Have the take the good with the bad if you like new toys.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Erich

[peejman]

14 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Just saw a story on the evening news about the down side of EVs. One item that caught my attention was they said that the EV owners on average use more electricity charging their car over a week than their entire house uses in the same time.

Yep, and we need to cut back out A/C because the power grid is overloaded. 

The grid is overloaded this time of year from noon until midnight. There is typically excess power available overnight. This is where "smart" meters and household power distribution systems are nice.  Even though you plug your EV in when you get home, it doesn't begin a heavy charge until the A/C isn't working so hard.  

While this does use more electricity overall, it has the benefit of leveling out the demand  which is easier for the utility and producer to manage. 

There's plenty of electricy intensive businesses that are only permitted to run overnight when usage is otherwise low. 

[btq96r]

On 7/19/2022 at 8:10 PM, RKRider1954 said:

Or until we ride out the down slope of the Hubbert peak.  I get that EVs aren't ready for use en masse yet, but time and technology are on their side with oil being a finite resource.

Look at the leaps we've made from the time they were a concept to being able to see Tesla's out and about.  Now the conventional companies are getting into the market.  We're realistically only a generation or two from this being a workable concept given how fast technology can evolve, and industry can rally.

Edited July 21, 2022 by btq96r

[monkeylizard]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:48 PM, E4 No More said:

The premise of the EV was to save money.

That was the old premise and yes, it was a lie in the total cost of ownership but not in the daily/monthly expenses. The cost of electrons to go a mile is lower than the cost of gasoline to go a mile. Plus regular maintenance is cheaper (no oil changes, brakes last a lot longer, coolant lasts a lot longer, etc.). We're getting closer to them being basically break even. You'll pay more up front for a comparable EV, but cost of ownership is lower. You'll pay less for an ICE, but cost of ownership is higher. For now the total is still higher for the EV vs a comparable ICE.

The new premise is instant torque, amazing performance, convenience of "filling up" at home, less localized air pollution in high-density urban areas, and they still have the lower cost of maintenance vs ICE cars. Over the next decade we're going to see big growth in the charging station availability and charging speeds. It's going to take a quantum leap in battery tech to be able to charge one from 5% to 100% in 5 minutes or less the way we can fill a gasoline tank now, but the gap will close. We'll also see new designs that the EV platform makes possible by the removal of the engine (we already have "frunk" storage) which could never be done with an ICE engine.

The eco-friendliness is at best misleading and at worst a lie. It depends a lot on where your electricity comes from. Here in TN we get a lot from nuclear, coal, and NG fired plants. Many of our older fossil-fuel plants have been updated with way more efficient processes and air scrubbers so they're less polluting than they used to be. Out west, there's more solar which does make less CO emission during energy production. But the solar panel production is pretty unfriendly to the environment. Then again, so is building a coal plant, mining coal, and storing the coal ash so pick your poison.

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, monkeylizard said:

That was the old premise and yes, it was a lie in the total cost of ownership but not in the daily/monthly expenses. The cost of electrons to go a mile is lower than the cost of gasoline to go a mile. Plus regular maintenance is cheaper (no oil changes, brakes last a lot longer, coolant lasts a lot longer, etc.). We're getting closer to them being basically break even. You'll pay more up front for a comparable EV, but cost of ownership is lower. You'll pay less for an ICE, but cost of ownership is higher. For now the total is still higher for the EV vs a comparable ICE.

How do brakes last longer on an EV?  Electric engine braking?  And how much does the average car owner spend on coolant?  Also, EVs are supposedly harder on tires.  

Edited July 21, 2022 by deerslayer

[gun sane]

I don't have an engineer's diploma on my wall, but I can grasp a lot of things in principle.  If the EVs have four wheels rolling and ram air intakes, why not install mini-generators in those places to help supply the juice?

[DL126]

8 minutes ago, gun sane said:

I don't have an engineer's diploma on my wall, but I can grasp a lot of things in principle.  If the EVs have four wheels rolling and ram air intakes, why not install mini-generators in those places to help supply the juice?

Same here ....
I've said for years that there is a lot of wasted energy on highways.
Every vehicle that goes by creates wind that could maybe be harnessed.
I've often wondered also if there could be something embedded in the road to be activated as a vehicle passes by. (some sort of ratcheting mechanism?)

The problems start cropping up in energy loss through each conversion process.
Sure seems like there should be something though ...
 

[Moped]

2 hours ago, monkeylizard said:

The eco-friendliness is at best misleading and at worst a lie. It depends a lot on where your electricity comes from. Here in TN we get a lot from nuclear, coal, and NG fired plants. Many of our older fossil-fuel plants have been updated with way more efficient processes and air scrubbers so they're less polluting than they used to be. Out west, there's more solar which does make less CO emission during energy production. But the solar panel production is pretty unfriendly to the environment. Then again, so is building a coal plant, mining coal, and storing the coal ash so pick your poison.

We won't be building anymore coal fire plants in the Tennessee valley Authority service area.  Actually TVA is tearing them down.  Bull Run is next on the chopping block and looks like it will go offline in late 2023 or early 2024.  That will leave, Kingston, Gallatin, Cumberland and Shawnee coal plants. Cumberland and Kingston look to be next to go offline and be retired (full retirement by 2033 for both. The other Shawnee and Gallatin plants will be gone by 2035. 

The power that these remaining plants generate will be replaced by Combined Cycle Gas Turbine and Combustion Turbine Gas plants, solar farms and other green energy power plants.  TVA is planning to bring on 10,000 megawatts of solar energy alone over the next ten years.  Several farms have been built already, with studies ongoing for a bunch more.

None of this top secret and all this infoirmation can be found on the internet after a cursory Google search.

Now back to our topic at hand EVs.  

[Erich]

2 hours ago, monkeylizard said:

We'll also see new designs that the EV platform makes possible by the removal of the engine (we already have "frunk" storage) which could never be done with an ICE engine..

except for those pesky rear and mid engine engine cars

 

[Erich]

1 hour ago, gun sane said:

I don't have an engineer's diploma on my wall, but I can grasp a lot of things in principle.  If the EVs have four wheels rolling and ram air intakes, why not install mini-generators in those places to help supply the juice?

Conservation of energy. Using a powered positive drive item to drive a generator takes power that is other wise used to drive the vehicle forward. It’s the opposite of what’s going on in regenerative braking.

Think of it as opening your fridge to cool the room. No free lunch that isn’t naturally occurring. 

The wind turbine concept has scaling problems. External turbines of any size to matter would induce aerodynamic drag and weight that would take extra power to overcome, same deal. Anything in a duct that isn’t ‘external’ would be too small to matter and impede flow taking away from that systems purpose.