Electric Vehicles

[Capbyrd]

MotorTrend and Rivian teamed up to travel the TransAmerica Trail in a pair of Rivian R1Ts.  


I love the idea of this trip but bragging about how feasible it was really put me off.  It was only feasible and done because Rivian figured the route ahead of time and installed chargers where they were needed.  They literally built the infrastructure specifically for this trip.  That's great if you want to copy what they did, but doesn't help for your normal trips.  


The other reason that your experience wouldn't be the same is that these trucks are pre-production samples.  A lot of people think of pre-production as still having issues that need worked out and with the big three, thats probably true.  But with a company like Rivian, that means that they had extra attention while being built.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OldIronFan]

I am sure that Jackson and Crocker had no issues finding gas for their trans continental trip in 1903. 
https://americanhistory.si.edu/america-on-the-move/crossing-country

If electric cars were feasible in 1903 we would have a nation with many thousands of electric charging stations across the country instead of a gas station on every corner. Electric cars are just now in this century becoming feasible so it might take a few years to develop the network of charging stations that begins to meet the demand/need. 

[Dirtshooter]

On 11/17/2021 at 6:17 AM, Erik88 said:

How is this any different than a gas powered vehicle having trouble?  You're SOL either way. 

 

Well for one, if you are out in the boonies away from a charging station you are going to be towed to a charging station.  I on the other hand can get a can of gas and pour it into my gas burning vehicle. I heard the last snow storm that pileup in Kentucky wouldn't have been so easy to clear if all those vehicles had been electric. Instead of running out of gas and being able to refill quickly, it would have been tow truck time. I also heard the Canadian's are not happy with the electric cars because it sucks so much electricity to keep heater warm, they have short mileage limits.

[bobsguns]

On 1/13/2022 at 9:34 AM, OldIronFan said:

 Electric cars are just now in this century becoming feasible so it might take a few years to develop the network of charging stations that begins to meet the demand/need. 

Priced a replacement battery? I hear $5-7k for one. Plus there's no re-cycling for the old ones, they just store them. Neither sounds very efficient nor a wise choice, IMO. 

[bobsguns]

17 minutes ago, Dirtshooter said:

 I also heard the Canadian's are not happy with the electric cars 

Some might ask, "When are Canadians EVER happy?"   

[Jeb48]

I asked a friend that has a Volt hybrid (he agrees full electric is not for most people but loves his hybrid) about being stranded in a snow storm. He said, assuming a reasonable charge when they get stranded they could go days running the heater if they were conservative, heater takes a lot less power than motor. He lives in the North and he carries space blankets and said he would use the seat warmer with the space blanket over him and the passenger. Apparently he has tried this and he says it keeps you comfortable and uses less power than heating the whole car. He also uses the heated seats for most short trips rather than turn on the heat.

I could probably be convinced to go hybrid if the battery gave me 40-60 miles. That would take care of most local trips and I could charge at home. Long trips you run on gas. Apparently they are working on batteries/charges that could give you a full charge in 10 minutes. If that became the norm then they could become the way of the future. Of course you still need to generate and distribute all the extra electricity. My friend says accept when they take a long trip they buy no gas, they just plug in at home every few days.

[Grunt67]

I'm 78, and by the time electric becomes commonplace,  I won't need one.

[eRay]

I just bought a new Maverick truck and paid $1100 extra to get a straight gasoline engine instead of a hybrid. I am too old to be the one experimenting with new technology. I don't even carry a smart phone, I'll just finish out what time I have left living in the past.

[No_0ne]

On 1/13/2022 at 8:34 AM, OldIronFan said:

If electric cars were feasible in 1903 we would have a nation with many thousands of electric charging stations across the country instead of a gas station on every corner.

Electric cars were actually quite popular during this era and had many advantages over contemporary gasoline powered vehicles.  It's likely that the first powered vehicle used for personal transportation was electric, circa 1880 in France.  Thomas Edison was an early proponent of electric cars, and the Detroit Electric was one of the most successful in the teens and twenties - Clara Ford, wife of Henry, used one as her personal car for many years.  Eventually gasoline won out over both electric and steam powered cars, but in the early years of automotive history electric cars were in widespread use ...

Here's a 1915 Detroit Electric car currently located in a museum ...

[Johnny Rotten]

7 hours ago, No_0ne said:

Electric cars were actually quite popular during this era and had many advantages over contemporary gasoline powered vehicles.  It's likely that the first powered vehicle used for personal transportation was electric, circa 1880 in France.  Thomas Edison was an early proponent of electric cars, and the Detroit Electric was one of the most successful in the teens and twenties - Clara Ford, wife of Henry, used one as her personal car for many years.  Eventually gasoline won out over both electric and steam powered cars, but in the early years of automotive history electric cars were in widespread use ...

Here's a 1915 Detroit Electric car currently located in a museum ...

That car is screaming for a LS swap

[OldIronFan]

9 hours ago, No_0ne said:

Electric cars were actually quite popular during this era and had many advantages over contemporary gasoline powered vehicles. 

 

They were somewhat popular and were in a race to become viable but like you stated IC/gasoline won out over steam and electric. Any advantages they may have had did not translate to the masses for more widespread use at the time. Certainly would be interesting to see what would become of industry, technology, and the world if it had gone the other way. 

[OldIronFan]

11 hours ago, bobsguns said:

Priced a replacement battery? I hear $5-7k for one. Plus there's no re-cycling for the old ones, they just store them. Neither sounds very efficient nor a wise choice, IMO. 

 

Just had a quote to replace the fuel injectors on my wife's car, $2800. Just the fuel injectors.
What do you think it would cost to replace an engine in a late model car?
I had an engine replaced on a new car about ten years ago. Thankfully it was still under warranty, the bill was over $8,000. 32,000 miles on the failed motor, just under the 3 year / 36,000 mile warranty at the time. If I had driven it a few more months before failure I would have been paying that out of pocket. 

There is already a huge market for the used batteries. There are resourceful people starting businesses that refurb the packs by disassembling them testing the individual cells, replacing the failed or failing cells, and selling the refurbed packs to EV owners. You know sort of like engine builders who will sell you a refurb engine, take back your bad core, and refurb it for the next customer. 

Again the solutions for the problems EV's face will not come overnight. It is constant development. 
Not enough range... Battery tech, motor efficiency and control efficiency is constantly improving. 
Not enough charging stations.... The network is ever expanding and will continue to due so. 
Charging is slow... again battery tech is ever evolving, as is charging tech.
Battery cost is high... Economy of scale, when the demand for them begins to approach the demand for IC engine components you will see battery cell costs plummet. 
Batteries are no more environmentally friendly than gasoline... I will admit this is a tough one. We have a long way to go to improve all aspects of battery production from mining of the elements to recycling of the spent cells. This alone is the biggest hurdle to continued development but we still have significant environmental issues extracting crude from the earth and refining it. Massive oil spills, spills from train wrecks, pipeline issues, a few pesky wars, and some genocide have all plagued oil production. To think that the environmental issues surrounding batteries are a deal breaker to their development/use is to wear blinders and maintain ignorance of the issues that surround oil/gas use. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by OldIronFan

[DL126]

On 11/17/2021 at 7:11 AM, DL126 said:

I've had a hybrid on order since the middle of June.
Maybe I'll get it by next summer ...? 

1/14/21 = Still no production date on my order for the Maverick.
Meanwhile, during that first bit of snow we had, I drove my wife's Edge with AWD.
I've owned many 4WD trucks in my life, still have one, but never one that would do what that AWD Edge did.

Visited dealer, changed my order to the non hybrid version with the FX4 AWD package.
I suppose now I'm another 6 months out. 
If that happens, maybe I'll order a 2023 model and cancel the current order altogether.

[bobsguns]

13 hours ago, Eray said:

I just bought a new Maverick truck and paid $1100 extra to get a straight gasoline engine instead of a hybrid. I am too old to be the one experimenting with new technology. I don't even carry a smart phone, I'll just finish out what time I have left living in the past.

Lot less stressful doing that, IMO. I just upgraded my ipad tablet & I know my BP went up 20 points in the 2-3 days it took me to get it squared away. Sales help at the Verizon store was less than worthless, they knew even less than I did.

[bobsguns]

3 hours ago, OldIronFan said:

Just had a quote to replace the fuel injectors on my wife's car, $2800. Just the fuel injectors.
What do you think it would cost to replace an engine in a late model car?
I had an engine replaced on a new car about ten years ago. Thankfully it was still under warranty, the bill was over $8,000.

Were these prices from a dealer or independent shop? Awfully high for the services, IMO. 

This is a good example of why I buy the factory extended warranty.

[bobsguns]

3 hours ago, DL126 said:

Meanwhile, during that first bit of snow we had, I drove my wife's Edge with AWD.
I've owned many 4WD trucks in my life, still have one, but never one that would do what that AWD Edge did.

May not be a fair comparison, IMO.

The entire back of a truck is pretty light when the bed is empty, i.e. nothing to press down on the rear wheels when there's snow & ice. 

The Edge has a much closer 50/50 weight distribution than a truck does, which is perhaps why it did better for you? 

Edited January 18, 2022 by bobsguns

[OldIronFan]

16 minutes ago, bobsguns said:

Were these prices from a dealer or independent shop? Awfully high for the services, IMO. 

This is a good example of why I buy the factory extended warranty.

Engine replacement was dealer as it was factory warranty. The car was new enough that no ready source of refurb/core engines were available at the time. I would have had to go with a dealer regardless. 

The injectors were at my favorite local independent shop. They have been great in the past. 
It is a direct injection motor so we are talking 1700PSI high pressure injectors at ~$160ish each. 
Only one failed but since you have to take the intercooler, filter housing, charge pipes, battery, battery box, ecu, throttle body, intake manifold, PCV valve and tube, EGR pipe, MAP sensor, HPFP housing, and fuel rail off to get to that one injector you better spend the extra few hundred dollars to replace the other 3 injectors. Then you better think about upgrading the injector seals which are a known weak point in the engine. That is an extra $200. Then since you have it all apart you should probably replace the PCV valve, intake manifold gasket, throttle body gasket, and the bypass valve body gasket. Also while apart you should consider cleaning the intake valves since they will be covered with carbon and oil deposits, since it is a direct injection motor. Took me 4 hours to pull it all apart, another 4 hours cleaning the valves, and about 2.5 to 3 hours putting it back together. I spent  roughly $800 to $900 on parts to do it myself and that was finding a deal on the OEM injectors from someone who bought them but then got scared of the work to do the job themselves. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by OldIronFan

[bobsguns]

9 minutes ago, OldIronFan said:

The injectors were at my favorite local independent shop. They have been great in the past. 
It is a direct injection motor so we are talking 1700PSI high pressure injectors at ~$160ish each. 
Only one failed but since you have to take the intercooler, filter housing, charge pipes, battery, battery box, ecu, throttle body, intake manifold, PCV valve and tube, EGR pipe, MAP sensor, HPFP housing, and fuel rail off to get to that one injector you better spend the extra few hundred dollars to replace the other 3 injectors. Then you better think about upgrading the injector seals which are a known weak point in the engine. That is an extra $200. Then since you have it all apart you should probably replace the PCV valve, intake manifold gasket, throttle body gasket, and the bypass valve body gasket. Also while apart you should consider cleaning the intake valves since they will be covered with carbon and oil deposits, since it is a direct injection motor. Took me 4 hours to pull it all apart, another 4 hours cleaning the valves, and about 2.5 to 3 hours putting it back together. I spent  roughly $800 to $900 on parts to do it myself and that was finding a deal on the OEM injectors from someone who bought them but then got scared of the work to do the job themselves. 

 

So what's yer point???????    

Sounds like a diesel to me. Is it?

 

[OldIronFan]

20 minutes ago, bobsguns said:

 

So what's yer point???????    

Sounds like a diesel to me. Is it?

 

 

No point other than answering your questions and to state that maintenance costs on modern powertrains (gas, diesel, or electric) can be astronomically high these days. Not exclusive to battery packs. 

Nope, not a diesel. Regular ol 2.3l 4 cylinder Mazda motor. Just GDI (gasoline direct injection) 
 

Edited January 18, 2022 by OldIronFan

[bobsguns]

3 minutes ago, OldIronFan said:

Nope, not a diesel. Regular ol 2.3l 4 cylinder Mazda motor. Just GDI (gasoline direct injections) 

 

Really????

I never knew a modern gas engine did DI anymore. Learn something every day in here. 

[OldIronFan]

5 minutes ago, bobsguns said:

 

Really????

I never knew a modern gas engine did DI anymore. Learn something every day in here. 

Becoming more popular than ever it seems, especially on small displacement turbocharged engines. There are a bunch of offerings from Volkswagen/Audi, BMW, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, and Lexus with GDI. 

I am not a fan really and it may fall out of favor as technology advances but it seems to be here to stay for a little while. 

[peejman]

1 hour ago, bobsguns said:

Were these prices from a dealer or independent shop? Awfully high for the services, IMO. 

This is a good example of why I buy the factory extended warranty.

$100/hr plus parts adds up quick.  

When the timing belt was due to be changed in my minivan, the Toyota dealer gave me the lowest estimate. All 3 local shops were 10-20% higher. 

Add this to the list of reasons why used cars are so expensive. 

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, OldIronFan said:

No point other than answering your questions and to state that maintenance costs on modern powertrains (gas, diesel, or electric) can be astronomically high these days. Not exclusive to battery packs. 

Nope, not a diesel. Regular ol 2.3l 4 cylinder Mazda motor. Just GDI (gasoline direct injection) 
 

I've replaced an injector on an F150. Took 30 minutes and about $20.

An injector on a Tacoma took about 45 minutes and $80.

It ain't that complicated. Dealerships make their money in the finance and service departments.

[OldIronFan]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

I've replaced an injector on an F150. Took 30 minutes and about $20.

An injector on a Tacoma took about 45 minutes and $80.

It ain't that complicated. Dealerships make their money in the finance and service departments.

Those are traditional low pressure fuel injectors and are generally easy to access. I am talking about direct injection. Injectors are directly into the combustion chamber/cylinder bore not the intake manifold. You have to remove everything off the side of the motor including the intake manifold and everything that connects to it. That intake is literally wrapped around and shrouding the fuel rail below and behind it. 
Refurb high pressure injectors are $128. New injectors are $160ish each from a discount parts source like Rock Auto. They are double that from a dealer. I believe the job books at 7~8 hours which is just about what it took me if I don't count my time cleaning the intake valves. 

[gregintenn]

29 minutes ago, OldIronFan said:

Those are traditional low pressure fuel injectors and are generally easy to access. I am talking about direct injection. Injectors are directly into the combustion chamber/cylinder bore not the intake manifold. You have to remove everything off the side of the motor including the intake manifold and everything that connects to it. That intake is literally wrapped around and shrouding the fuel rail below and behind it. 
Refurb high pressure injectors are $128. New injectors are $160ish each from a discount parts source like Rock Auto. They are double that from a dealer. I believe the job books at 7~8 hours which is just about what it took me if I don't count my time cleaning the intake valves. 

Thanks. I’ll try and steer clear of those. Ugg!