Electric Vehicles

[deerslayer]

11 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

At least on the braking aspect, “regenerative braking” is “backdriving” the electric motors to put electricity back into the battery.  It’s a small amount but the drag on the motor means the car slows down without touching the brakes more than engine braking in an ICE vehicle.   This is an oversimplification of the process but basically it just works out to the motor slows the vehicle more so that you touch the brakes less. 
 

 

coolant, not enough. 

Thanks, I figured engine braking had something to do with it.  

[monkeylizard]

14 hours ago, Jeb48 said:

Yeah . . . because the owner of an ICE car would never be told "Your car needs a new engine" or "Your car needs a new transmission".

Batteries are more now than a new engine/trans but battery costs are continuing to fall. Five to ten years from now I expect they'll reach parity cost with an ICE replacement. And with battery packs expected to still retain 90% of their charge after 200,000 miles, their replacement cycle will likely be as good or better than an ICE engine or trans.

[Quavodus]

The former vice president and his evil ones, want it now, not 5 to 10 years from now. If they get their way, the prices better come down quick. I didn't use capital letters on purpose for his title. I'm a smartass.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Quavodus

[FUJIMO]

3 hours ago, monkeylizard said:

Yeah . . . because the owner of an ICE car would never be told "Your car needs a new engine" or "Your car needs a new transmission".

Batteries are more now than a new engine/trans but battery costs are continuing to fall. Five to ten years from now I expect they'll reach parity cost with an ICE replacement. And with battery packs expected to still retain 90% of their charge after 200,000 miles, their replacement cycle will likely be as good or better than an ICE engine or trans.

Thats an inaccurate picture because I'm pretty sure the "fix it" shop will be regulated away when EVs hit the big time. The car industry is already trying their damnedest to deter anyone from doing something as simple as changing their own oil. I feel like EV battery swaps will be done by dealers or dealer approved shops. Hope im wrong. 

[monkeylizard]

If that comes to pass, it would apply to ICE just as much as EVs.

[FUJIMO]

18 minutes ago, monkeylizard said:

If that comes to pass, it would apply to ICE just as much as EVs.

It already is if you're in the auto mechanics world. Can't work on new sh*t without a scan tool these days

[Erich]

1 hour ago, FUJIMO said:

It already is if you're in the auto mechanics world. Can't work on new sh*t without a scan tool these days

True, and it use to be problematic. It’s a good example of a need driving positive change.  Today scanning interfaces are dirt cheap and  readily available.  No different than buying any other tool you’d need.

I’ll never argue things aren’t to complex, they are.  But they do come with a seldom recognized sizable benefit. That thing we hate can also tell us what’s wrong (usually). Sure its got dozens of things your car from the 60’s didn’t have to go wrong, but plenty of things made in the last 40 years (the majority of us) could benefit from the upside in time / cost savings compared to testing or swapping modules/parts when it can’t easily be isolated. 

There are some open source programs that allow you to alter configuration in onboard systems. And for those committed to never seeing a Ford dealer, a programming interface is available along with Fords actual technical software used by dealerships for full diagnostic and programming ability. Limited use licenses run as little as $50.  That’s just an example i’m familiar with, could be makes as well.  

Times have changed. Its more a matter of keeping up with them if one chooses. 

Admittedly, I choose to, though i’m not always thrilled to do it.

[Erich]

GM saying it will build 1,000,000 EVs in 2025. 2021 totals around 22,000

Genius, whacky weed, or over exuberance....sounds a bit too lofty a goal. But still worth taking note given WH demands.

https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/gm-will-be-able-to-produce-a-million-electric-vehicles-per-year-by-2025/

 

[Erich]

This is a great example of the bad that comes with the good, and what meant by taking a car to the dealer being tenuous as well as the nefarious things that OTA updated can do b b if left enabled. Love the tech, hate the guys in the suits

https://electrek.co/2022/07/26/tesla-ransom-customer-over-80-miles-battery-range/amp/

[Johnny Rotten]

55 minutes ago, Erich said:

GM saying it will build 1,000,000 EVs in 2025. 2021 totals around 22,000

Genius, whacky weed, or over exuberance....sounds a bit too lofty a goal. But still worth taking note given WH demands.

https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/gm-will-be-able-to-produce-a-million-electric-vehicles-per-year-by-2025/

 

You're killing me

GM Making Just 12 Electric Hummers a Day Despite Having 77,000 Orders (businessinsider.com)

yeah 12.

 

[RED333]

45 minutes ago, Erich said:

This is a great example of the bad that comes with the good, and what meant by taking a car to the dealer being tenuous as well as the nefarious things that OTA updated can do b b if left enabled. Love the tech, hate the guys in the suits

https://electrek.co/2022/07/26/tesla-ransom-customer-over-80-miles-battery-range/amp/

Just imagine what big brother will asked to be done? 

Bob is driving to much on the weekend, cut him off at 2 hours.

Mary is driving to far to get a better price on food, cut her off at 45 mins.

[FUJIMO]

2 minutes ago, RED333 said:

Just imagine what big brother will asked to be done? 

Bob is driving to much on the weekend, cut him off at 2 hours.

Mary is driving to far to get a better price on food, cut her off at 45 mins.

As I've already mentioned on here and a couple other forums I belong to, if you think EV means you'll have the same freedoms as you have now with mean ol Mr ICE think again. More control for big brother less freedom for you. Count on it 

[Erich]

Folks are letting their hatred of EV rile them up enough to were they’re completely missing the point.  Has ZERO to do with the propulsion system. EV, Hybrid, ICE, or 3 squirrels on a treadmill makes absolutely no difference when it comes to control of vehicle in the recent thread context.

Its 100% about modern vehicles having their systems run thru a centralized OS which can be externally modified and/or controlled. 

Hate EV if you want, but at least be clear on what the real problem is on the expanded control topic. The ICE model is running through that same and is just as vulnerable to being exploited by bad actors.

 

[monkeylizard]

Yep. We're conflating 4 different issues in this thread:

1. The method of storing energy - ICE mostly wins this one because gasoline refills are fast and available everywhere effectively creating unlimited range. EV gets a bonus because it's easy to start each day with a full "tank".
2. Cost - ICE wins the up front costs and major repair costs. EV wins maintenance/operating costs and is closing the gap on both up front and major repair costs.
3. External control - Tie. This ranges from annoying (subscription to use your seat heaters) to frightening (remote disabling/controlling). Neither is immune from it.
4. Right-To-Repair - ICE wins for now because that horse is out of the barn. EV is the emerging tech the mfg's are trying to fence in.

All 4 are mostly independent, but since EVs are generally closer to the cutting edge of technology and are usually loaded up with more of it, they're currently more likely to get caught up in #3 in the near term. In the medium term, all ICE cars will see the same thing. There's likely no significant long term for ICE as far as new production goes.

Toss in the government meddling trying to force consumers to EV who don't want to go so it adds to our EV con list and makes it an emotional rather than rational conversation. Nobody likes to be told what to do. That stops critical thinking skills to where we can't see the advantages of EV (performance, always full at the start of each day, lower operating costs, enough range for most needs) and only focus on the negatives (high up front cost, not really green like advertised, limited public charging infrastructure, charging times, and limited heavy-duty availability for those who need it).

Edited July 29, 2022 by monkeylizard

[FUJIMO]

2 hours ago, Erich said:

Folks are letting their hatred of EV rile them up enough to were they’re completely missing the point.  Has ZERO to do with the propulsion system. EV, Hybrid, ICE, or 3 squirrels on a treadmill makes absolutely no difference when it comes to control of vehicle in the recent thread context.

Its 100% about modern vehicles having their systems run thru a centralized OS which can be externally modified and/or controlled. 

Hate EV if you want, but at least be clear on what the real problem is on the expanded control topic. The ICE model is running through that same and is just as vulnerable to being exploited by bad actors.

 

I'm not missing the point at all. I can fully see where EV has its place and long term will be much more efficient for many tasks inside a given area/range. However, any time gov gets involved and is the largest spokesperson for it theres a catch and its worse for the consumer.

Diesels are a great example of this. Europe has used them for decades and there's models that aren't allowed here that get 60 mpg. That's no accident. No different than EPA regulations back when GW was running the show. They became less efficient when they wanted new tech used.

I drove a gas hybrid Toyota in 2019 all over the UK. It was hitting 51+ mpg on the motorway. It was using a type of regenerative braking complete with a gauge in the instrument cluster to show optimum speed for maximum performance and efficiency. Hell I wanted to come home and buy a new one for a daily commuter. Once again gov cock blocked it and Toyota just now has it slated for a 2023/24 release. 

As to the criminal exploitation technology that will take place thats gonna be a by product of modernization im afraid. 

[gregintenn]

On 7/27/2022 at 10:56 AM, monkeylizard said:

Yeah . . . because the owner of an ICE car would never be told "Your car needs a new engine" or "Your car needs a new transmission".

Batteries are more now than a new engine/trans but battery costs are continuing to fall. Five to ten years from now I expect they'll reach parity cost with an ICE replacement. And with battery packs expected to still retain 90% of their charge after 200,000 miles, their replacement cycle will likely be as good or better than an ICE engine or trans.

Well, you can’t swing be the local junkyard and pick up an EV battery for a few hundred bucks and swap it out over the weekend. You can do this with an engine or transmission.

[FUJIMO]

11 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Well, you can’t swing be the local junkyard and pick up an EV battery for a few hundred bucks and swap it out over the weekend. You can do this with an engine or transmission.

Cash for Clunkers had a very specific agenda. Anyone that didn't see it wasn't paying attention 

[monkeylizard]

32 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Well, you can’t swing be the local junkyard and pick up an EV battery for a few hundred bucks and swap it out over the weekend. You can do this with an engine or transmission.

First of all, it's an issue of supply. There simply aren't as many EVs on the road for long enough to be showing up in the junk yards. But they will. When that happens you will be able to pick up the electric motors. I predict a DIY community will spring up for which motors to grab from the latest models and how to retro fit them to our older models to get more power, more range, or both. Basically the EV version of hotrodding.

Because of the risk of electric shock the battery will not likely be a "pull it yourself" part. Too much liability, like the airbags they pull and don't sell. Either the yards will pull the battery packs and have them separate like they do with some electronics now, or they'll pull them and ship them to a recycler/rehabber facility and we'll never get our hands on them directly from the pull-a-part.

[Erik88]

Just when I think you guys couldn't get any more conspiratorial, you surprise me. I guess I'll wait for my government forced and controlled electric vehicle. Maybe they'll send us another stimulus check to help pay for it. 

 

 

[gregintenn]

48 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Just when I think you guys couldn't get any more conspiratorial, you surprise me. I guess I'll wait for my government forced and controlled electric vehicle. Maybe they'll send us another stimulus check to help pay for it. 

 

 

There have already been tax incentives for purchasing electric vehicles.

[peejman]

13 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

There have already been tax incentives for purchasing electric vehicles.

EV tax credits expired in 2019. There is a bill in process to bring them back. If the bill doesn't include a retroactive provision, EV sales will crash until the bill gets signed.  

[Erich]

2 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Just when I think you guys couldn't get any more conspiratorial, you surprise me. I guess I'll wait for my government forced and controlled electric vehicle. Maybe they'll send us another stimulus check to help pay for it. 

 

 

It took me years to curate a nice collection of various foil hats for any occasion, I'm pretty happy with em. Most folks dont know this, but they have figured out how to get thru the tin ones. Very appropriate to mention while we are on the topic of new tech capabilities and vulnerabilities. Point being, dont be driving around in your ICE with a tin foil hat thinking your safe.

 

[Erich]

17 hours ago, FUJIMO said:

As I've already mentioned on here and a couple other forums I belong to, if you think EV means you'll have the same freedoms as you have now with mean ol Mr ICE think again. More control for big brother less freedom for you. Count on it 

 

10 hours ago, FUJIMO said:

I'm not missing the point at all. I can fully see where EV has its place and long term will be much more efficient for many tasks inside a given area/range. However, any time gov gets involved and is the largest spokesperson for it theres a catch and its worse for the consumer.

Diesels are a great example of this. Europe has used them for decades and there's models that aren't allowed here that get 60 mpg. That's no accident. No different than EPA regulations back when GW was running the show. They became less efficient when they wanted new tech used.

I drove a gas hybrid Toyota in 2019 all over the UK. It was hitting 51+ mpg on the motorway. It was using a type of regenerative braking complete with a gauge in the instrument cluster to show optimum speed for maximum performance and efficiency. Hell I wanted to come home and buy a new one for a daily commuter. Once again gov cock blocked it and Toyota just now has it slated for a 2023/24 release. 

As to the criminal exploitation technology that will take place thats gonna be a by product of modernization im afraid. 

lol. I wasnt specifically referring to you, no worries. It was the tone on some of the preceding items and them being someone directed at EV in particular. I'll say your comment seem to imply there are less abilities to exploit ICE over EV, but that may not have where you were going perhaps. 

We actually share alot of the same concerns on the ability to exploit the tech. I think, I may have (for better or worse) been the one who brought up that concern in the thread.  It was the one thing that almost had me hold back. But I only see it getting worse, and for now, as delivered, I can remove the ability to communicate with it if needed.

Biggest difference is  I currently see the auto makers as the biggest abusers. Though they could easily hand over control to whoever they choose to.

I'll add one thought in reference to .gov and regs seeming to preclude things available internationally. We have more lobby from the manufactures and oil. Here .gov is an outcome of big oil and car manufactures. Anyone remember what happened to the first EV's and who was buying charging stations and removing them? Interesting topic.

As far as that item on Toyota, that sounds more like Toyota or how its implemented? Mine has that feature and goes back to earlier models. I would be very surprised not to see it on others, or that it cant be unlocked if for some reason its a disabled item.

[Erich]

18 hours ago, Johnny Rotten said:

You're killing me

GM Making Just 12 Electric Hummers a Day Despite Having 77,000 Orders (businessinsider.com)

yeah 12.

 

I kill myself, so you know. 0 Silverados and 20k Bolts not that it matters.

Not sure his you read that, but to be clear, it’s meant to point out a 50x increase in just 2 tooling years is [insert your preferred BS tag]

I see the marketing setup aspect to get the attention of Tesla and Ford fans as Genius.

Execution you’d have to be a bit stoned to think they can get there( maybe you prefer on crack lol). 

But the intent and direction should be paid attention to. It’s a shift in parts supply and labor to the EV line. They may not hit the number, but there will be a hit in ICE numbers as suppliers transition in Gms fight for marketshare after Ford got a leg up on them. They may leverage this thought of recession to not add labor needed to keep numbers up on both lines.

 

[Daniel]

9 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Just when I think you guys couldn't get any more conspiratorial, you surprise me. I guess I'll wait for my government forced and controlled electric vehicle. Maybe they'll send us another stimulus check to help pay for it. 

 

 

I really hope they are trolling at this point lol.