Electric Vehicles

[Erich]

9 hours ago, btq96r said:

…What's worse is that 25% accepting is going to creep up as generations shift.  Gen Z and Millennials are used to subscription models for plenty of things as a normal part of their life.  …Microsoft Office becoming a subscription instead of a new version you could ride out buying every other release is a great example, your smartphone being amortized as part of your monthly service plan is a other.  …

…  Griping in a survey is different from voting with your wallet.

The future has a lot of cool stuff we haven't even conceptualized yet.  It will also have the same style of merchants finding creative, often insidious ways to get you to fork over money to them just like it's been since antiquity.

Truer words…

I laughed at the generational reference, I removed it from the initial version to avoid triggering. Of course the problem may have been I paired millennial with scourge. Yours is much kinder. 

Companies moving to models with emphasis on recurring revenue streams over one-time sales IS actually a systematic one, unlike the times that word is unreasonably stretched.

What I see in all the information and surveys is they are continually probing to see what they can get away with and pushing. Its no different than undisciplined children testing limits of their bad behavior.

I can’t see fault in it with regard to purely service based sectors. But the trend of infusing this into goods by the addition of ransomware has passed its inflection point. If one has paid an additional up front charge to add as an option, ransomware is the appropriate term.

I recall the MS’s discussion points on the 365 model where they pointed to their research finding the average MS office user was on a 7 year upgrade cycle. They simply and blatantly stated that was to long and by holding the software hostage they could increase revenue. It’s one of my favorite examples of where the train was fully coming off it’s rails, so Ioved seeing it here. 

Here is the thing folks need to be most wary of: The Backdoor trap

This was my biggest problem buying this new truck. Its all well and good that it has limited subscription items that are of no concern outside maybe the autonomous driving (a topic in itself). The issue is the ability for the mothership to modify the systems remotely via Over The Air updates. 100% of vital systems are run thru control modules with a programmable firmware layer. This is should be a plus to add future enhancements, and in the hands of the ethical would be the fantastic bonus. But in the hands of the auto makers…

For now owners can disable OTA updates. There is sufficient support in the aftermarket to maintain or retake control. It makes any dealer service tenuous. You have to ensure they don’t enable the nefarious bits each time. 

The compromise in my mind is something like Red mentioned. Great to have the latest and greatest, but having a trusted old school ‘dumb’ vehicle as well is the way to go. The examples presented are surprisingly  recent. Pre 80’s is what I’d be looking at with maybe a few exceptions. Would love to have my 87 Silverado back. The old school body with fuel injection, most importantly the last year of the all analog dash.

 

[Quavodus]

4 hours ago, FUJIMO said:

This is a very good point. Nothing I own is newer than 2012 and I am A OK with that. I recall my BIL bitchin about crank windows on his old VW Jetta a couple years back and the fact it didn't have a usb charging port, mp3, etc etc etc. Mind you it got 50 mpg but this was before Joey's pump pounding. So he sold it for something with more creature comforts and half as good mpg. He now regrets the choice he made and I do my best to remind him of it every time I talk to him

 

I got just enough asshole in me that I would remind him of that a lot too. Kinda funny.

[Quavodus]

4 hours ago, FUJIMO said:

I hope this happens a lot more.

[monkeylizard]

1 hour ago, Quavodus said:

I hope this happens a lot more.

Why? How does it benefit you for someone else to be stranded? On the EV forums they could post a similar photo of an ICE car stranded out of gas and say "I hope this happens a lot more". Sure it's more convenient to quickly refuel an empty ICE with a gas can than to tow it, but the same basic principal can happen to either type of energy. You gotta watch your fuel/battery gauge. One advantage an EV has that few people with ICE cars have is that you can almost always start your day with a full charge. Plug in at home each night and you always start on Full.

Someone brought up a mass evacuation like a hurricane. That's definitely a challenge, but it's also a challenge for ICE cars. Lots of people never make it all the way because they run out of gas and the one gas station for 20 miles ran out hours ago.

Last winter there was a big snowstorm somewhere that stranded a bunch of people for a day or two. Gas cars were running out of fuel overnight, mostly because few were on full tanks when the day began. But there was at least one guy in a Tesla who stayed warm all night and was able to drive home after the road reopened because he started the day on a full charge. Another byproduct of the ICE cars in that situation was breathing in toxic fumes. When a car is moving, you don't get that effect, but packed together on a closed roadway and everyone idling, lots of those toxic fumes pool around the car and cars are not airtight.

[Erich]

I wonder how close all this is to the saloon conversations during the 1800's when the horse owners were having questions about the feasibility of horseless conveyances.

 

 

 

[eRay]

1 hour ago, Erich said:

I wonder how close all this is to the saloon conversations during the 1800's when the horse owners were having questions about the feasibility of horseless conveyances.

 

 

 

They probably hung around the saloon saying " Where do these people plan to get gasoline? Grass and water are everywhere."

[monkeylizard]

I'd say it's a fair bet it's pretty much the same thing. And we see how that turned out.

Like it or not, we will move to non-gasoline engines. The only real unknown is how quickly. China is investing heavily in EV infrastructure and their HUGE upwardly mobile middle class is driving the entire world market. China has already passed the US to become the world's largest car market.

EVs are still fairly new and are more expensive up front than similar ICE cars and a battery replacement is more expensive than a comparable engine replacement in an ICE car. But a $15K battery pack today cost what, $25K 10 years ago? What happens when a battery pack lasts about as long on average as an ICE and costs about the same as a new engine replacement? And charge times are down to under 10 minutes or rapid battery pack swaps are available? That day is coming. I know we're not there yet. I don't have an EV and wouldn't yet have one as my only vehicle. The cost structure and the infrastructure isn't ready yet and I'm not in the "early adopter" segment but I'm glad that some people are. They're helping make the EVs better and drive down the costs for the rest of us who will have to switch sooner or later. I don't plan to buy another car for around 5 more years, and I'll definitely be looking at EV.

Edited July 24, 2022 by monkeylizard

[Quavodus]

I will not buy an EV till I have to. The idiots that charge theirs with gas generators crack me up. They think they're saving the planet.

[btq96r]

5 hours ago, Erich said:

Here is the thing folks need to be most wary of: The Backdoor trap

Every time I see a new model car (ICE or EV), and notice more and more being done through some kind of data connection...I sigh.  Maybe I'm stuck on a worst case scenario that isn't likely, but I can't help but think that "right to repair" is going to have a wide meaning.  The battle over such a concept coming to everybody's individual conveyance in my lifetime worries me.

 

[gregintenn]

36 minutes ago, btq96r said:

Every time I see a new model car (ICE or EV), and notice more and more being done through some kind of data connection...I sigh.  Maybe I'm stuck on a worst case scenario that isn't likely, but I can't help but think that "right to repair" is going to have a wide meaning.  The battle over such a concept coming to everybody's individual conveyance in my lifetime worries me.

 

I picture a hacker causing a 50 mile long pileup on I65 during rush hour traffic.

[Chucktshoes]

3 hours ago, btq96r said:

Every time I see a new model car (ICE or EV), and notice more and more being done through some kind of data connection...I sigh.  Maybe I'm stuck on a worst case scenario that isn't likely, but I can't help but think that "right to repair" is going to have a wide meaning.  The battle over such a concept coming to everybody's individual conveyance in my lifetime worries me.

 

Y’all all look up the work of Louis Rossman. He does a lot of good work in this area. Right to repair should already be on all of y’all’s radar if it isn’t already. 

[Erich]

3 hours ago, btq96r said:

Every time I see a new model car (ICE or EV), and notice more and more being done through some kind of data connection...I sigh.  Maybe I'm stuck on a worst case scenario that isn't likely, but I can't help but think that "right to repair" is going to have a wide meaning.  The battle over such a concept coming to everybody's individual conveyance in my lifetime worries me.

 

I’m sure it’s better to have an abundance of caution around the fringe possibilities in the hope of preventing them from being reality. Or at least a livable reality.

Seeing what can be done via remote access, one would be naive to not have some level of concern. Irrespective if its made easier by legislation to standardize system protocols. 

If this does start to look problematic, I would expect we’ll start seeing a good number of used auto cell / sat / wireless receivers on eBay. 

[peejman]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:18 AM, Moped said:

At some point, we are going to be subscriptioned to financial ruin, though. This is not a trend I like at all.

Example, we cut the cable a couple of years ago for a substantial savings. That's been creeping back into cable territory as subscription rates have crept up over the last two years.  And yes I know it's our choice, but is it really? 

As for what I want on a car, well I can be pretty basic. I don't need a lot of whistles and bells.  A radio, AC/heat, adjustable mirrors and a comfortable seat, go a long way.  Also enough engine and transmission to pull my trailer comfortably, is all I ask for from a truck.  Don't care about an onboard GPS, hotspots, or connected service to someone in New Delhi, so they might not make as much money on me as they hope.   

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bmw-rolls-out-18-heated-seat-subscription-plan-sparks-momentous-outrage-among-owners-193442.html

 

[Erik88]

My 2002 Tundra doesn't even have a power seat and the older it gets the more I like it. I did add Bluetooth though. 

[Defender]

3 hours ago, Erik88 said:

My 2002 Tundra doesn't even have a power seat and the older it gets the more I like it. I did add Bluetooth though. 

How did you add bluetooth?

[Erik88]

25 minutes ago, Defender said:

How did you add bluetooth?

I replaced the original stereo with a modern one I bought from Crutchfield. It came with a little microphone I mounted on my A Pillar for phone calls. After that you just pair your phone with your stereo just like any other Bluetooth device. I added a backup camera that works with the new stereo too. It's was all fairly straightforward. There are lots of videos online to help if you get stuck. 

 

[btq96r]

4 hours ago, Erik88 said:

I replaced the original stereo with a modern one I bought from Crutchfield. It came with a little microphone I mounted on my A Pillar for phone calls. After that you just pair your phone with your stereo just like any other Bluetooth device. I added a backup camera that works with the new stereo too. It's was all fairly straightforward. There are lots of videos online to help if you get stuck. 

 

I've been debating that for my 2002 Ford Ranger.  But I like local radio. 

[Erik88]

6 minutes ago, btq96r said:

I've been debating that for my 2002 Ford Ranger.  But I like local radio. 

Local radio still works with new stereo. 

[btq96r]

8 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Local radio still works with new stereo. 

Oh I'm way too lazy and cheap to switch out the speakers. I don't drive enough for it to be worth it.

[monkeylizard]

All you have to change is the head unit. No speaker change required.

Just be sure to get one with a built-in AM/FM radio. I would expect they all would, but these days I wouldn't bet on it.

[gregintenn]

20 hours ago, Erik88 said:

I replaced the original stereo with a modern one I bought from Crutchfield. It came with a little microphone I mounted on my A Pillar for phone calls. After that you just pair your phone with your stereo just like any other Bluetooth device. I added a backup camera that works with the new stereo too. It's was all fairly straightforward. There are lots of videos online to help if you get stuck. 

 

That would be nice.

[Moped]

15 hours ago, btq96r said:

Oh I'm way too lazy and cheap to switch out the speakers. I don't drive enough for it to be worth it.

You can buy a bluetooth radio transmitter.  I have one in my truck, that I bought from Amazon.  Works great for streaming music. 

This is the one I bought, https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-FM-Transmitter-Wireless-Adapter/dp/B07F2RTN5Z/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3H6W9UUJFYM6E&keywords=bluetooth+car+adapter&qid=1658858096&sprefix=bluetooth%2Caps%2C244&sr=8-4

[-boatman-]

On 7/25/2022 at 4:30 PM, Erik88 said:

I replaced the original stereo with a modern one I bought from Crutchfield. It came with a little microphone I mounted on my A Pillar for phone calls. After that you just pair your phone with your stereo just like any other Bluetooth device. I added a backup camera that works with the new stereo too. It's was all fairly straightforward. There are lots of videos online to help if you get stuck. 

 

I went this route too and have been very satisfied. The most time consuming thing on the install was running the cable for the back up camera.

[Capbyrd]

On 7/21/2022 at 10:27 AM, deerslayer said:

How do brakes last longer on an EV?  Electric engine braking?  And how much does the average car owner spend on coolant?  Also, EVs are supposedly harder on tires.  

At least on the braking aspect, “regenerative braking” is “backdriving” the electric motors to put electricity back into the battery.  It’s a small amount but the drag on the motor means the car slows down without touching the brakes more than engine braking in an ICE vehicle.   This is an oversimplification of the process but basically it just works out to the motor slows the vehicle more so that you touch the brakes less. 
 

 

coolant, not enough. 

[Jeb48]