Baldwin shoots two on movie set, accidental misfire???

[E4 No More]

12 hours ago, Grunt67 said:

Your observation must have been limited.

As a former LEO myself, I agree with his observations. Most of the cops that I knew only fired their weapons on qualification day.

[Alleycat72]

I've had LEOs shooting at the house several times and I'll say this.....as a whole, they are over confident in their ability. Some of them take it very seriously and are extremely good shots.

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, E4 No More said:

As a former LEO myself, I agree with his observations. Most of the cops that I knew only fired their weapons on qualification day.

I find they run the gamut from shouldn’t have a gun to expert marksman just like the general population.

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

I find they run the gamut from shouldn’t have a gun to expert marksman just like the general population.

In 1993 when I left, I never saw any other officer that was an expert marksman with a pistol. But I have pretty high expectations out of anyone referred to as an expert in anything. Today's standards are even higher with the new types of shooting competitions out there that the average cop would fail at miserably. I shot quite a bit, and I would not consider myself as an expert with a pistol. Now the rifle is another animal. Back then I could put a bullet in the pupil of a target at 100 yards on command. Today I'm too round to shoot that well again.

Edited November 10, 2021 by E4 No More

[Grunt67]

I think we have a misunderstanding.  I'm not talking about expert marksmanship,  but handling, safety, klutz In general.

I'll agree there's not a lot of expert marksmen out there, of any stripe.

[E4 No More]

2 minutes ago, Grunt67 said:

I think we have a misunderstanding.  I'm not talking about expert marksmanship,  but handling, safety, klutz In general.

I'll agree there's not a lot of expert marksmen out there, of any stripe.

There are many cases of cops NDing weapons - including in the PD's building. When I was a LEO the big thing was to install a small barrel full of sand on a stand so that when an officer needed to load or clear a weapon they did so with the weapon's barrel pointing at the sand so any ND would be shot harmlessly into the sand. They did this to prevent more bullet holes in their lockers, walls, floors, etc.

[deerslayer]

15 minutes ago, Grunt67 said:

I'm not talking about expert marksmanship,  but handling, safety, klutz In general.

Both.  I shoot a lot of USPSA and IDPA and the last thing you want to hear from a new guy is “I’m a cop and I know how to handle a gun.”  I shoot with a couple highly competent LEOs, but the majority of them are downright scary with their muzzle control and trigger finger discipline.  

[GlockSpock]

1 hour ago, deerslayer said:

Both.  I shoot a lot of USPSA and IDPA and the last thing you want to hear from a new guy is “I’m a cop and I know how to handle a gun.”  I shoot with a couple highly competent LEOs, but the majority of them are downright scary with their muzzle control and trigger finger discipline.  

Well, truth be told, I've never been comfortable shooting guns around anyone that self proclaims that they are an "expert" with guns.

[Chucktshoes]

21 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

Well, truth be told, I've never been comfortable shooting guns around anyone that self proclaims that they are an "expert" with guns.

Outside of proving bonafides in a legal context, self declaration of expertise is a red flag for me. 

[Capbyrd]

43 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Outside of proving bonafides in a legal context, self declaration of expertise is a red flag for me. 

I'm an expert in not being an expert. 

 

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, GlockSpock said:

Well, truth be told, I've never been comfortable shooting guns around anyone that self proclaims that they are an "expert" with guns.

Same here.  

[bobsguns]

20 hours ago, Grunt67 said:

Your observation must have been limited.

Yeah, no.

That's from over 30 years of watching cops shoot in matches, watching them handle guns in shops & shows. Most importantly, that's from long-time cops whom ARE gun guys that spoke about their fellow cops. 

Now I agree there is a probably a big difference between rural cops & urban ones. I've had an academy firearm instructor tell me that a lot of recruits have never touched a gun until they got to the academy. 

I'm not going to get into the after action reports on cops shooting an entire mag & scoring only one or two hits. That's an endless argument & it's not going to change your mind at all, I get that. You want to defend your profession, I get that too. No one is saying they're bad people, only that the majority of them are horrible with guns when compared to us "gun guys". That's all I'm saying.

[bobsguns]

8 hours ago, E4 No More said:

As a former LEO myself, I agree with his observations. Most of the cops that I knew only fired their weapons on qualification day.

Thank you.

[Frog4aday]

Back to Alec Baldwin (AB) wanting cops on set - as if that would have made a difference. They had an armorer on set BUT she wasn't around when the assistant director (AD) apparently grabbed a gun & handed it to AB & said, "Cold gun." If you aren't going to follow the rules (no gun handling w/o the armorer present) what difference would having hired a cop make? They'd just ignore that person, too, because them Hollyweird people are smarter than everyone else <sarcasm>.

 

It's just more deflection. The real issue is inexperienced people handling a deadly weapon in a casual & sloppy manner. How were the guns out with no armorer present? Why did the AD not check every chamber? How did a live round get put into the gun? Why didn't AB aim to the right or left of an actual human being when pulling the trigger? 

 

Careless, clueless people treating a real gun like a toy was the issue; a cop being around would not have changed the outcome.

[OLDNEWBIE]

Many stats floating around so please correct me if wrong but just 3 gun deaths in all film history? One perhaps suicide?

Sounds hard to believe when you think of the gun comedy era of Abbott and Costello or three stooges and all the freaking westerns and war movies and shows of the 50s and 60s. All those multitudes of extras in war epics handed a Nazi uniform and a Mauser and told to run this way or that, point over there. Nobody shot.

If true I can't believe it's all because actors are so safe and gun savvy or dumb luck was on their side.

I mean guns and film sets have been more safe than anywhere else with guns it seems statistically. Hollywood had gun safety with dumb actors figured out to a tea till fairly recently. 

Baldwin's production broke all the historic basic rules and all that was left to save the woman's life was the dumb actor?

Baldwin and his lawyers will play up dumb actor and play down his producer role. Best hope is he goes broke over this and is shunned by Hollywood forever.

 

 

 

 

[Frog4aday]

Just read today that the scene they were rehearsing didn't even call for the gun to be fired, just drawn & pointed at the camera. That means the hammer was cocked AND the trigger was pulled while pointed @ a human being in a rehearsal for a scene where that wasn't in the script.

[Grayfox54]

Seems to me that they are intentionally dragging this out. Out of sight, out of mind? 

[mikegideon]

5 hours ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

Many stats floating around so please correct me if wrong but just 3 gun deaths in all film history? One perhaps suicide?

Sounds hard to believe when you think of the gun comedy era of Abbott and Costello or three stooges and all the freaking westerns and war movies and shows of the 50s and 60s. All those multitudes of extras in war epics handed a Nazi uniform and a Mauser and told to run this way or that, point over there. Nobody shot.

If true I can't believe it's all because actors are so safe and gun savvy or dumb luck was on their side.

I mean guns and film sets have been more safe than anywhere else with guns it seems statistically. Hollywood had gun safety with dumb actors figured out to a tea till fairly recently. 

Baldwin's production broke all the historic basic rules and all that was left to save the woman's life was the dumb actor?

Baldwin and his lawyers will play up dumb actor and play down his producer role. Best hope is he goes broke over this and is shunned by Hollywood forever.

 

 

 

 

A big part of that is that there's no place for live ammo on a movie set. You can accidentally shoot anybody if Andy didn't give you any bullets.

[OLDNEWBIE]

8 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Seems to me that they are intentionally dragging this out. Out of sight, out of mind? 

So many players, people walking off set, the AD, the Armorer, whoever was plinking, the actor/producer, the victims, the mystery person who brought/bought real ammo on set, the other person who had gun safe access, the person who last loaded the gun and probably half a dozen more assistants and gophers who might have had a chance to access the gun.

Hints coming out this loaded gun might have been done on purpose to what end? Lots of possibilities.

Gotta be multiple charges coming up, can't imagine the money and resources thrown at this. A nightmare hassle for the law.

[Frog4aday]

I just keep thinking that it all would have been avoided if the AD had actually checked the gun for ammo before handing it to Baldwin & saying "cold gun". That single step would have broken the cycle of live ammo being on set being an issue. As @OLDNEWBIEpointed out, not just one problem with this movie but many(!) people doing many things wrong & that cascade of sloppiness, willful misbehavior, & failure to follow standard protocols when an actual gun is used as a prop led to one persons death & another being wounded.

Seems like there is a lot of blame to go around but the fatal mistakes were made by the assistant director (Dave Halls) not checking the loaded status of the gun before declaring it safe & Alec Baldwin cocking the hammer & pulling the trigger of the gun while it was pointed at a human being when that was not in the script (he was just supposed to draw the gun & point it @ the camera.)

Edited November 14, 2021 by Frog4aday
Chg'd lead to led

[bobsguns]

Saw this a day or two ago. I'm shocked they would doctor the crime scene before the cops got there. Shocked, I say.

 

Quote

An attorney for the armorer on the set of “Rust” said that his client is being “framed” for the tragic death that occurred when Alec Baldwin shot the film’s cinematographer.

The lawyer for Hannah Gutierrez-Reed insisted on Wednesday that “sabotage” and a “tampered” crime scene were evidence of the frame job for the shooting last month on the New Mexico film set.

Story

[OLDNEWBIE]

I'm leaning towards sabotoge also if dummies and live ammo were indeed mixed into a box however..... This alone does not excuse the armorer from checking and rechecking the gun and ammo as well as every other safety procedure being followed. Only the armorer being dismissed from the set by her employer for the day and someone else handling the gun by breaking a locked safe etc., would perhaps excuse her part in this.

[Grayfox54]

Sabotage is a possibility, but stupidity is far more likely. Many mistakes were made by many different people. But in the end, Baldwin pulled the trigger. 

[bobsguns]

9 hours ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

Only the armorer being dismissed from the set by her employer for the day and someone else handling the gun by breaking a locked safe etc., would perhaps excuse her part in this.

My question is this: why wouldn't ANY gun being used on-set be kept under lock & key with ONLY the armorer having the key? Why wasn't the gun(s) kept like the nuclear launch codes? One person & ONLY one person having access to them? Armorer not on the set? Then the guns can't be touched by ANYONE else, period. They're locked away.

Clearly that would make too much sense for Hollyweird.     

[mikegideon]

1 minute ago, bobsguns said:

My question is this: why wouldn't ANY gun being used on-set be kept under lock & key with ONLY the armorer having the key? Why wasn't the gun(s) kept like the nuclear launch codes? One person & ONLY one person having access to them? Armorer not on the set? Then the guns can't be touched by ANYONE else, period. They're locked away.

Clearly that would make too much sense for Hollyweird.     

I'm betting those ARE the rules on well run sets.