Baldwin shoots two on movie set, accidental misfire???

[OLDNEWBIE]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

 

Aren’t we pretty solid on who pulled the trigger?

If the scene requires pointing at the camera and pulling the trigger then the actor points and pulls. If actor believed/trusted gun was empty or set up with dummy rounds because person in charge said it was....Then that actor won't be charged.

As with any other actor, B movie starlet to seasoned combat war movie A lister in this situation. 

Baldwin the actor? off the hook.

Baldwin the producer? Sounds guilty.

If Baldwin the actor,producer knew Assistant Director had no business bypassing armorer by handing him a gun then he is very guilty.

 

[mikegideon]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

 

Aren’t we pretty solid on who pulled the trigger?

I think it's the guy that ADMITTED IT, right?

[Omega]

14 minutes ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

If the scene requires pointing at the camera and pulling the trigger then the actor points and pulls. If actor believed/trusted gun was empty or set up with dummy rounds because person in charge said it was....Then that actor won't be charged.

As with any other actor, B movie starlet to seasoned combat war movie A lister in this situation. 

Baldwin the actor? off the hook.

Baldwin the producer? Sounds guilty.

If Baldwin the actor,producer knew Assistant Director had no business bypassing armorer by handing him a gun then he is very guilty.

 

I was under the same misunderstanding of procedures until I watched a few seasoned actors say that they, the actors, are supposed to check the weapon, and, if it includes pointing it at anyone, then that person also checks it.

[OLDNEWBIE]

4 minutes ago, Omega said:

I was under the same misunderstanding of procedures until I watched a few seasoned actors say that they, the actors, are supposed to check the weapon, and, if it includes pointing it at anyone, then that person also checks it.

According to YouTube experts lol...

Actor checking is encouraged or optional.

In a period gun like this or any revolver where dummy rounds need to show for the camera, checking means basically loading it yourself or together with the armorer.  Something I would insist on. Actors span the spectrum of gun knowledge but in general are probably absolutely ignorant on guns. So they trust the production crew, director etc. Maybe this will now change?

[Erik88]

[bobsguns]

8 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Now that's funny!   

[OLDNEWBIE]

22 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Yeah I’m serious. I know why, but where is the public outrage?

Even here on a gun forum, we seem divided on who to blame.

Highly outraged? Yes I am but you gotta consider the context.

Movie making is where adults playing bang bang with guns is normalized and basic gun handling logic is suspended. Or at least left in the hands of those delegated to safety on set.

Instead of Baldwin who I dislike,  I think what if some 18 year old unknown bimbo starlet was put on the set and handed a "safe prop gun"? Never using a gun before in her life. The experts said here, shoot. It's perfectly safe.

If she killed someone I doubt the outrage would be on the actor.

System sucked and maybe Baldwin the experienced actor should have known better.  Certainly as Baldwin the producer.  Average actor though with the system that was in place?Not guilty I'm guessing. 

 

[bobsguns]

Seems the old directors/producers knew a thing or three about safety.

[Omega]

On 10/30/2021 at 3:29 PM, OLDNEWBIE said:

According to YouTube experts lol...

Actor checking is encouraged or optional.

In a period gun like this or any revolver where dummy rounds need to show for the camera, checking means basically loading it yourself or together with the armorer.  Something I would insist on. Actors span the spectrum of gun knowledge but in general are probably absolutely ignorant on guns. So they trust the production crew, director etc. Maybe this will now change?

Not YouTube experts, seasoned actors.  The other video was taken down, here is the same one, with extended clips.  John Schneider explains many of the on set procedures, which I am sure are part of most, but apparently not all sets.

 

6 hours ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

Highly outraged? Yes I am but you gotta consider the context.

Movie making is where adults playing bang bang with guns is normalized and basic gun handling logic is suspended. Or at least left in the hands of those delegated to safety on set.

Instead of Baldwin who I dislike,  I think what if some 18 year old unknown bimbo starlet was put on the set and handed a "safe prop gun"? Never using a gun before in her life. The experts said here, shoot. It's perfectly safe.

If she killed someone I doubt the outrage would be on the actor.

System sucked and maybe Baldwin the experienced actor should have known better.  Certainly as Baldwin the producer.  Average actor though with the system that was in place?Not guilty I'm guessing. 

 

 I, at first, gave him the benefit of the the doubt, because frankly I did not know how things work on set.  I was under the impression that the gun wrangler would be the last safety check, and that the actors would not be expected to know how to perform a rudimentary safety check on a weapon.  But like John Schneider says in the video, safety briefings are conducted showing actors and other set personnel the weapons, real or not, are safe.  And how to confirm that they still are when they get them.

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

14 hours ago, Omega said:

Not YouTube experts, seasoned actors.  The other video was taken down, here is the same one, with extended clips.  John Schneider explains many of the on set procedures, which I am sure are part of most, but apparently not all sets.

 

 I, at first, gave him the benefit of the the doubt, because frankly I did not know how things work on set.  I was under the impression that the gun wrangler would be the last safety check, and that the actors would not be expected to know how to perform a rudimentary safety check on a weapon.  But like John Schneider says in the video, safety briefings are conducted showing actors and other set personnel the weapons, real or not, are safe.  And how to confirm that they still are when they get them.

 

No doubt if these steps were followed all would be well. Just like many workplaces I've made a living at, the management usually skirts the rules. The vast majority of employees are none the wiser.

If the actor is never instructed then it's on the production if death or injury occurs. 

Sounds like Baldwin ran an unsafe workplace. Perhaps as he knew this and also pulled the trigger justice will prevail.

On a side note Balwin and his wife living it, up dining out etc after this Is disgusting. His wife's anger at the press questions during the impromptu interview, extra disgusting. 

[Capbyrd]

All of you seem to forget that there are four rules and they can never be ignored.  

Ignorance is not a defense. 

1.  All guns are always loaded. 
2.  Never point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy.
3.  Finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4.  Know your target and what is beyond it.  

You can break any one of these rules and generally there are no severely negative consequences.  The rules are designed that way.   Sometimes we MUST break a rule (field stripping a glock for instance).  But we should be cognizant of the other three rules in those cases. 


Alec broke three rules.  He ignored rule one and broke rules two and three.   

Are other people culpable in this situation?  Yes.  But as firearms owners we should never try and justify someone else's negligence.  

I don't care that he doesn't know guns or like them.   I don't care.   He has to use one for his role so he should educate himself.  He should be as close to an expert as he can get in the time allotted.  Could you imagine a cop that didn't like guns just going on the force, or a security guard?  Their dislike is NOT a defense to whatever bad action they might take.  

In a perfect world, the two shot wouldn't be anywhere near in front of the gun.  There are remote controls and viewing devices that could have allowed them to be in a safe location.  But we don't live in a perfect world.  

In this world, Alec, the person that handed him the gun, and the people in charge should be held responsible for this lady's death.  Each of them is equally responsible.   

[Grayfox54]

A lot of people screwed up. There was a lot of screwed up stuff on the entire production. From what's come out it seems obvious that most of these screw ups were the outcome of trying to save a buck and just plain being cheap. As a producer, Baldwin is ultimately responsible for everything wrong on that set. Its his own fault if he wasn't properly trained to handle a firearm.  

But I still maintain, Baldwin and only Baldwin is responsible for pulling that trigger. Its his bullet.  

[OLDNEWBIE]

52 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

But as firearms owners we should never try and justify someone else's negligence.  

Never justify a fellow firearms owner's negligence, agreed. Never justify a business relaxing gun safety like the little girl with the full auto UZI awhile back who lost control and killed a guy at that business either.

It's quite possibly an accident in some cases if the shooter is ignorant and he does not own or didn't steal the firearm. It's Negligence if shooter is a gun owner or has knowledge of guns. 

If an actor claims he is ignorant of all aspects of firearms and the Production didn't properly train them on basic safety, then on top of that hand a hot gun to him and say it's empty.... Sorry,  I just don't see any jury convicting them. This case if fair, could be different. Baldwin being part of the business/production should have known about the guns and rounds used on the set. And if he knew and still shot someone then he might go down.

[mikegideon]

44 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Its his bullet.  

Yep!

[Capbyrd]

1 hour ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

It's quite possibly an accident in some cases if the shooter is ignorant and he does not own or didn't steal the firearm. It's Negligence if shooter is a gun owner or has knowledge of guns. 

 

Ignorance doesn't make negligence an accident. 

 

[Omega]

4 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

All of you seem to forget that there are four rules and they can never be ignored.  

Ignorance is not a defense. 

1.  All guns are always loaded. 
2.  Never point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy.
3.  Finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4.  Know your target and what is beyond it.  

You can break any one of these rules and generally there are no severely negative consequences.  The rules are designed that way.   Sometimes we MUST break a rule (field stripping a glock for instance).  But we should be cognizant of the other three rules in those cases. 


Alec broke three rules.  He ignored rule one and broke rules two and three.   

Are other people culpable in this situation?  Yes.  But as firearms owners we should never try and justify someone else's negligence.  

I don't care that he doesn't know guns or like them.   I don't care.   He has to use one for his role so he should educate himself.  He should be as close to an expert as he can get in the time allotted.  Could you imagine a cop that didn't like guns just going on the force, or a security guard?  Their dislike is NOT a defense to whatever bad action they might take.  

In a perfect world, the two shot wouldn't be anywhere near in front of the gun.  There are remote controls and viewing devices that could have allowed them to be in a safe location.  But we don't live in a perfect world.  

In this world, Alec, the person that handed him the gun, and the people in charge should be held responsible for this lady's death.  Each of them is equally responsible.   

While I am inclined to agree, there are caveats which would not only have you ignoring these rules, but actively go against them.  One is when you use sims, and another is when shooting (no pun intended) movies.  But because you are ignoring these rules, you need to have a safety plan in place which will mitigate the danger of doing so.  When I participated in some hostage rescue training, both as a hostage and a hostage taker, we were well briefed on the weapons and projectiles that would be hitting us (in the case of being a terrorist, and once as a hostage) and issued PPE to protect us from the sims.  All weapons were checked, and double checked with no live ammo anywhere near the training areas because all weapons were real.  In movies, there are scenes that would have you actively ignoring these rules as well, and as I hear and read more about this, there are safety rules that should keep everyone safe.  But apparently these rules are not always followed, as we have in this case, the Lee case, and a few others I have read about.  

[Grayfox54]

On Inside Edition today they ran a video of Miss Reed's lawyer making a statement. He said that she was NOT on the set when the shooting occurred. She was in fact elsewhere doing other duties for her other job as a prop assistant. He also stated that there were no rehearsals scheduled for that time. 

Make what you will of that.

 

[bobsguns]

5 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

On Inside Edition today they ran a video of Miss Reed's lawyer making a statement. He said that she was NOT on the set when the shooting occurred. She was in fact elsewhere doing other duties for her other job as a prop assistant. He also stated that there were no rehearsals scheduled for that time. 

Make what you will of that.

 

What I make of all that is a first class chinese fire drill. Reminds me of the Pedo Biden administration: no organizational skills, no plan, piss poor execution and deflecting blame onto others. 

I still ask why the guns weren't locked up & under the total control of the armorer? If she wasn't on-set, the guns shouldn't have been available, IMO. Libtards are always lamblasting gun owners when a firearm is stolen: "Why wasn't it locked away?" Well, right back at them, IMO. 

[Erik88]

[bobsguns]

50 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I like that! Should be a law that every AR owner has to own one of these. 

I loathe that smug, condescending bastard. 

[mikegideon]

1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

Here's mine...  

[Grunt67]

Saw on the news that Baldwin is now wanting police officers on set to monitor things. Paid for by, guess who..........the Production Co. Imagine how that's going to work out.

[Defender]

Has Baldwin's camp announced yet that he is a "survivor" of that tragic movie set shooting?

[bobsguns]

5 hours ago, Grunt67 said:

Saw on the news that Baldwin is now wanting police officers on set to monitor things. Paid for by, guess who..........the Production Co. Imagine how that's going to work out.

Cops, in general, are THE worst gun people I know. Bad knowledge, bad safety practices, bad lack of experience. Reminds me of that video of giving that monkey a full auto AK-47..................... 

For those in here whom may be po-po, this is not intended as an insult, just an observation. 

[Grunt67]

1 hour ago, bobsguns said:

Cops, in general, are THE worst gun people I know. Bad knowledge, bad safety practices, bad lack of experience. Reminds me of that video of giving that monkey a full auto AK-47..................... 

For those in here whom may be po-po, this is not intended as an insult, just an observation. 

Your observation must have been limited.