What is it with churches and prohibiting carrying?

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

Got invited to a "wild game dinner" at a local church by my dad. While I'm not big on the religious stuff, I figured if nothing else, I'd get a good meal and maybe win a cool door prize. Got there, walked up to the door, and there's a big-ass sign.

"Concealed weapons are not permitted on these premises." Or something along these lines. Nothing resembling the legal requirements, mind you. Rather than walk all the way back to my dad's truck and stick my Kel-Tec in the glove box, I just ignored the signs. If I got made and asked to leave, so be it.

I found this to be particularly ironic in light of the event tonight. Among the door prizes were something on the order of a dozen guns, which were subsequently given away.

I'm considering writing a letter to the leadership. Personally, I don't give two craps about what they prohibit in their building; I don't anticipate going back there any time soon. But I'm really curious as to the rationale. Based on my experiences, the vast majority of Christians seem to be right-leaning, so it surprises me to see a sentiment like this from a church.

[poak]

Geez...

My girlfriend's grandparents recently opened a liquor store. Turns out, the space that they are leasing in a strip mall was formerly leased by DHS, and they still have the "ghost busters sign" on the door prohibiting firearms. Me being the nice guy I am told her grandmother she might want to remove the sign, as many HCP folks won't shop at a biz that prohibits legal carry, and they may loose business for it... Her response "I don't care, they can go somewhere else, my gun is the only one I want in here". My response? "Yeah... Because armed robbers will really care about your stupid sign :rolleyes:"...

So yeah, me and my gun buy our booze elsewhere now

[Rightwinger]

You should make a big deal of pouring yourself a nightcap with some really expensive booze next time she is there just to let her know you got it cheaper and safer elsewhere!

[Smith]

Personally I've been in the ministry all my life and I have never been to a church that had signs or even a policy of any kind concerning guns and I've been to all sorts of churches all over the country. Curious that you found one that singles it out.

[Guest 70below]

My friends father is an Elder at his church and he or another Elder is posted outside with a ccw during service just in case someone decides to crash the joint.

[ftncityfatboy]

Got invited to a "wild game dinner" at a local church by my dad. While I'm not big on the religious stuff, I figured if nothing else, I'd get a good meal and maybe win a cool door prize. Got there, walked up to the door, and there's a big-ass sign.

"Concealed weapons are not permitted on these premises." Or something along these lines. Nothing resembling the legal requirements, mind you. Rather than walk all the way back to my dad's truck and stick my Kel-Tec in the glove box, I just ignored the signs. If I got made and asked to leave, so be it.

I found this to be particularly ironic in light of the event tonight. Among the door prizes were something on the order of a dozen guns, which were subsequently given away.

I'm considering writing a letter to the leadership. Personally, I don't give two craps about what they prohibit in their building; I don't anticipate going back there any time soon. But I'm really curious as to the rationale. Based on my experiences, the vast majority of Christians seem to be right-leaning, so it surprises me to see a sentiment like this from a church.

seems like they have been drinking the kool-aid. maybe they think their protection will come from above and in the event of an event, there will be devine intervention. as you know, proper concealment is a wonderful thing. its like flying under the radar....and in a church, only you and Jesus know, and personally, I think he is giving you the

[mousegunner]

You are always welcome to carry your gun at my church...

www.waysidechurch.org on Signal Mountain. You won't be the only one carrying, I assure you. No venison, though. But we usually have coffee!

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Doctrine determines my church.

That said, I wouldn't go to, or be a member of, a church with that attitude.

On a side note, just this week I was contacted by a local church in my city to put on an informal class pertaining to building security and self defense for the armed members that attend.

One of the pastors is a Vietnam-era SF guy, so I'm sure that has something to do with this church's attitude.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[NuTcAsE]

I think a church with a disregard for a persons right to bear arms, would also be fine with Congress making laws establishing religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

[Luckyforward]

As one who spent 25 years in active pastoral ministry, denominational executive, and now church consultant, let me give one warning to all who are thinking about having church members carry for congregational protection:

CHECK FIRST WITH YOUR INSURANCE CARRIER!!!!

A situation in my second pastorate in the early '90s called for congregational protection, and our deacons began talking about carry at church. One of our deacons was also the church's insurance agent, and he decided to check with the insurance carrier about church members carrying at church. The insurance company was emphatic: in no way would they cover in terms of personal injury or liability any injury coming from a church member carrying a firearm at church.

In my consulting with churches, I have found this to be the case with other insurance companies that cover churches. Some require trained security personnel for insurance coverage.

I would encourage you to check with your insurance company first.

[threeshot]

+1 luckyforward

To gutterboy,

I would not mention that the sign does not meet the legal signage. There have been a few threads on TGO chastising those that point-out to businesses that their no-gun signs do not meet proper state regulations.

Allow those who carry to continue to carry within the law.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

As one who spent 25 years in active pastoral ministry, denominational executive, and now church consultant, let me give one warning to all who are thinking about having church members carry for congregational protection:

CHECK FIRST WITH YOUR INSURANCE CARRIER!!!!

A situation in my second pastorate in the early '90s called for congregational protection, and our deacons began talking about carry at church. One of our deacons was also the church's insurance agent, and he decided to check with the insurance carrier about church members carrying at church. The insurance company was emphatic: in no way would they cover in terms of personal injury or liability any injury coming from a church member carrying a firearm at church.

In my consulting with churches, I have found this to be the case with other insurance companies that cover churches. Some require trained security personnel for insurance coverage.

I would encourage you to check with your insurance company first.

Regarding my post above...

They are not being employed by the church for that purpose.

I'm talking about a little extra training for members who happen to have HCPs and who normally carry while attending church.

The church is not requesting, or denying, anybody carrying a gun pursuant to their TN HCP and they are not paying me for the service if it takes place.

I see no more liability here than any other business who doesn't post anti-HCP signs at their front door.

Edited: Today's latest

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090308/Church.Shooting/

Edited March 8, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[Fadex]

As one who spent 25 years in active pastoral ministry, denominational executive, and now church consultant, let me give one warning to all who are thinking about having church members carry for congregational protection:

CHECK FIRST WITH YOUR INSURANCE CARRIER!!!!

A situation in my second pastorate in the early '90s called for congregational protection, and our deacons began talking about carry at church. One of our deacons was also the church's insurance agent, and he decided to check with the insurance carrier about church members carrying at church. The insurance company was emphatic: in no way would they cover in terms of personal injury or liability any injury coming from a church member carrying a firearm at church.

In my consulting with churches, I have found this to be the case with other insurance companies that cover churches. Some require trained security personnel for insurance coverage.

I would encourage you to check with your insurance company first.

I think these are two different subjects. An authorized citizen carrying legally without the church requesting him do so does not change the liability of the church.

BUT if the church discusses that certain members carry for the sole purpose of protecting the congregation in a time of need and either accepts volunteers, or chooses members to serve in that role. That is a whole different topic altogether. That type of action would make the church responsible for the actions of the members that the church has chosen or accepted to serve as, for lack of another term, security guards, without having the appropriate training.

[Fallguy]

I think some are missing the OP's point (or at least the point as I see it).

The church is apparenlty not completely anti otherwise why have a "wild game dinner" that would mean the game was shot most likely with a firearm, they were giving away firearms as prizes....but why then, post against carry?

I don't think any letter he may write was intended to correct them on the language of their sign, but to ask why a sign at all?

Not sure where chruch sponsored carry for protection came from......

[Fasttalker]

Just read today of a Pastor in IL that was shot to death this morning DURING THE SERVICE!! Also four or five in the congregation wounded. Appears that the gunman " just walked in and started shooting". His gun then jammed and he stabbed himself. Probably more to this than is first being reported, ( former member, ect.), but it may just be a case of a random crazy walking in. We have discussed this subject at our church and our Pastor encourages the HCP holders in our church to feel free to exercise their rights.

[Guest Fenris]

I am currently on staff at our church. I have told my pastor that for liability purposes, and the fact that I work with youth, I won't be carrying to church while I am on staff.

But I know of about 5 other guys who aren't on staff that have my back ;-)

My pastor is aware that folks carry, feels a little safer that they are, but doesn't necessarily want to know exactly who.

One of our elders is a lawyer. He might chime in at some point.

[Guest Whiskers]

I guess all those restrictive gun laws in IL were just not enough to protect the pastor and other people in the church. There will surely be an outcry from the libs to strengthen the gun laws in IL.... and I wonder if there was a single person in attendance carrying..... probably not.... or even if there was.... the fear of being prosecuted would make them hesitate to use their gun!

[Guest clownsdd]

The report on IL is wrong. That can't happen there because of their strict gun laws.

[Guest nraforlife]

Stirring it up

Y'all most churches will not fight for prayer in schools, posting the 10 commandments in public bldg or anything else that could cost them money SO what makes you think they are going to care about 2nd amendment rights?

[Rightwinger]

I am currently on staff at our church. I have told my pastor that for liability purposes, and the fact that I work with youth, I won't be carrying to church while I am on staff.

But I know of about 5 other guys who aren't on staff that have my back ;-)

My pastor is aware that folks carry, feels a little safer that they are, but doesn't necessarily want to know exactly who.

One of our elders is a lawyer. He might chime in at some point.

Fenris,

You of all the staff would be the first one I wanted to carry since you would be protecting the kids from these wackos!!!

[DaveTN]

Stirring it up

Y'all most churches will not fight for prayer in schools, posting the 10 commandments in public bldg or anything else that could cost them money SO what makes you think they are going to care about 2nd amendment rights?

And stirring it up even more….

This has nothing to do with 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment rights. Your state, your Federal District Court, and lastly the SCOTUS has ruled that you have a right to keep arms in your home but you absolutely have no right to bear them.

<O:p</O:p

As some have posted here; many churches allow carry.

"Concealed weapons are not permitted on these premises."

I'm considering writing a letter to the leadership. Personally, I don't give two craps about what they prohibit in their building; I don't anticipate going back there any time soon. But I'm really curious as to the rationale. Based on my experiences, the vast majority of Christians seem to be right-leaning, so it surprises me to see a sentiment like this from a church.

What’s so hard to understand? The leaders of the church got together and decided to put up the sign. Unlike you, who have no rights in this whatsoever; they have not only a right but a responsibility to do as they see best.

If you don’t agree with them, exercise the only right you have here… don’t go back.

<O:p</O:p

I don’t support the “No Guns†signs. But I hate to see this. Businesses are forced by their insurance companies, board of directors, and lawyers to post their premises due to liability reasons. The laws need to change. Suing a business simply because a shooting took place there is wrong and our legislators need to stop it.

<O:p</O:p

But of course that isn’t going to happen because many of our legislators are lawyers and they don’t want to deprive their low life fellow lawyers from getting money from innocent people simply because they are the only ones in the case that have any.

[Guest grimel]

I am currently on staff at our church. I have told my pastor that for liability purposes, and the fact that I work with youth, I won't be carrying to church while I am on staff.

1) what does you carrying while on staff have to do with liability?

2) what does working with the youth have to do with not carrying? If anything, working with the youth should be a reason to upgrade your carry equipment - too many nutjobs preying on the youth to be unarmed with a pack of them as your responsibility.

[Fallguy]

I am currently on staff at our church. I have told my pastor that for liability purposes, and the fact that I work with youth, I won't be carrying to church while I am on staff.

But I know of about 5 other guys who aren't on staff that have my back ;-)

My pastor is aware that folks carry, feels a little safer that they are, but doesn't necessarily want to know exactly who.

One of our elders is a lawyer. He might chime in at some point.

It is of course you chose as to carry or not at chuch. But I'm not really sure what liabilty the church would have just because you are on staff.

It's sort of like the bill in the legislature that would allow teachers and full time staff to carry at schools...there is no liabilty for the school.

Now if the church designated you to carry and or the school did to the teachers, that could be different.

Of course you know your situation better than any of us.

[Guest Fenris]

Let's just say with my position and what I do, I am personally uncomfortable carrying while on staff. Liability may not be the correct terminology. I think it may have to do more with policy. I would say that a staff member carrying might force an issue that would be best left unforced. I feel safe at my church because we have a security team and we have several members that are just regular members that carry.

I hope that makes sense.

[Guest bkelm18]

Stirring it up

Y'all most churches will not fight for prayer in schools, posting the 10 commandments in public bldg or anything else that could cost them money SO what makes you think they are going to care about 2nd amendment rights?

Separation of church and state. Prayer should not be in public schools nor should the 10 Commandments be in public bldgs (bldgs owned by the city/state/gov't, not bldgs privately owned but open to the public).