Is thermal worth it in middle TN?

[theTastyCat]

Hey all - now that the price of thermal has fallen into more reasonable territory, I'm considering it yet again.  But I just can't decide if it would be worth it.  Since we're not allowed to use it at night, seems like the best setup might be a thermal handheld to help locate animals with regular glass on the gun. I could also use a handheld while bowhunting to give me a little advance warning when deer are heading in.

I'd like to hunt predators and small game with rifles this year; seems like thermal might be a huge plus to find them or at least observe what they're up to.

BUT, it still is a substantial investment - do any of you all use thermal to hunt - and would you say it's worth it?  I mean thermal is ABSOLUTELY awesome tech - but is it worth it for our situation.

Final question for the thermal master race - for the closer ranges of middle TN, is 640 any benefit over 320?

Sure appreciate it, all!

[Alleycat72]

I will tell you that I hunt with a thermal at night more than I hunt during the day. I haven't looked at the regulations for this year, but normally they say " no night vision equipment between sun down and sun up". Translation...sun up to sun down is good to go. If you want to hunt during the day, you're good. At night it gets a little interesting. We hunt in Texas or South Carolina about 5 to 7 times a year. Pigs and coyotes are fair game at night. We kill a little over 100 Pigs a year. In Tennessee, you'll need a permit for night hunting. I will tell you this, people will seek you out to hunt at night on permits if you are good at it. I was on 7 permits this year. You have to be absolutely above board though. It is a completely different world. During permit session, I hunt 3 times a week. We have to keep meticulous records for the TWRA. Next year will be interesting. Coyote hunting at night almost passed. The vote was 50/50. The guy pushing it is in charge this year and the next vote is coming up early next year. Coyotes at the moment are off limits at night unless they are attacking your livestock or pets. No permits for them.  I can't stress this enough, learn to shoot at night if you do this. Shooting good with the sun is only the start. It's like learning a new language. PM me if you need any advice.  

[theTastyCat]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK I knew that it was voted on in 2020 and it was 6/6 and the chairman, with a tiebreaking vote, was absent (mad that we were that close!!!) but I had no idea that it's looking so good for this coming year - hard to believe it may in fact become a reality!!  And it should - coyote are out of control in TN.  If it does pass and we can hunt coyotes at night (w/NV and thermal) it would be an absolute NO BRAINER for me - I've got a helmet-mounted PVS14 and I'd add probably a thermal scope as well as a handheld.  I've been watching a LOT of youtubes of different thermals and I'm deadly jealous of everybody getting to hunt pigs and dogs in TX - incredible stuff!!

So if I'm understanding correctly, you're able to hunt dogs at night w/NV and thermal because you've got permits - that's awesome.  Any thoughts on 320 vs 640 thermal given the typical ranges of Middle TN?  Just thinking if I don't get 640 I may kick myself later......but I sure wouldn't be needing to ID at 1000 yards like you all might when hog hunting in TX!!

Sure appreciate the feedback!!

[Alleycat72]

You can't get a permit for coyotes in TN. The permits are for other things. I know it sounds crazy, but if I see a coyote killing a deer at night....I can't shoot the coyote legally. I've watched it happen and had to walk away. Get the best scope you can afford. I shoot an N-vision NOX 35mm now. I would use a N-vision, Trijicon, or Pulsar. Get the highest resolution you can get. One of my hunting partners uses a $1900 pulsar and does well, but he's not as fast as me on identifying what's in the field. I've killed game at 400 yards, however under 200 yards is 99.9% of shots.

Shooting Coyotes is a strange thing. I have a dog that looks just like a coyote through a thermal. So how do you know if it's a dog or a coyote?  I ask it if it's a coyote. After watching it's body language, I literally say " are you a dog ". A dog will go bat s@=t crazy barking. A coyote will circle you. Once they wind you, they will watch you. Sometimes within 30 yards. (Depending on the moon) if they get hunted at night a lot, you'll get busted. It's better to let them go than to make a mistake. 

I've had people apologize because they were not sure on a set. My rule is that everyone agrees that it's a good shoot before we shoot. If someone is undecided, we don't shoot. 

The next thing is distance. You have zero depth perception at night. I run a Silencerco radius range finder. It's invaluable. Several thermals have range finders in them now.  It's a game changer. 

[theTastyCat]

No kidding, Alley - well it's cool that you're able to get permits to hunt anything at night - I'm sure all the recordkeeping is a pain but I would imagine it's well worth it.

Yeah, I would imagine ID-ing at night is an ENTIRELY different animal - resolution will be important for that for sure

That NOX looks like nothing to shake a stick at...so do you also use it as a scanner?  I'm trying to figure out if it's a viable option to use a small enough unit as a handheld scanner, then QD it back on the rifle when needed - but I've heard some people say that's almost impossible in the dark when your blood is pumping.  What's your preference?

[Alleycat72]

Taking the scope off and putting it back on isn't a good idea. We scan with the guns. The guns are mounted on trypods. When we move we move with the trypod and gun as one unit. Before we hunt a new place, I map it out on onX hunt. Any structures are marked. We use this to map out acceptable shooting vectors. If we get an opportunity for a shot in a different spot, we check our location on onX and the target. If we are hunting out of state we let our host make that decision, however they sometimes get excited. Had a guy tell us to shoot towards his truck. We had pigs run between us and the truck and he wanted them dead. . We got the pigs but we didn't shoot in direction of the truck. Some of the guys in Texas use a scanner. It works good, but it's 47,000 acres. It's broken up over the whole county. We scan with hand held units as he drives down the road. The local game warden gets a call before we go out to let them know the area we will be shooting. That's the only place we go that does that though. It gets a bit expensive when you are running a 10k to 12k gun and also get a 3k scanner. 

I just popped for a second gun. This is a bolt gun and I'll be ordering a 50mm soon. It'll be set up for things other than pigs.  If the coyote thing doesn't happen, I'll move the scope to the 28 nosler and use it for the 400 yard and over hogs we normally pass up on in Texas or a scanner. 

 

[DL126]

AC72 has valuable info.
I'm convinced he knows what he's talking about.

In regards to your question ...
I have a Pulsar scope. (QD mounts are important as well.)
Also, the wife and I each have a hand held scanner.

IMHO, the value of the capability alone is 2nd only to your weaponry.

 

ETA ...
i use the scope more than anything else to squirrel hunt with on a 22LR.
Once the leaves fall, those little bushy tailed bastards aint gonna hide from thermal.
In fact, I've been on some outings where thermal found more than the dog we had.

The scanner has been a welcomed tool in finding deer after the shot is taken.
They work the same in daytime as night.
 

Edited August 30, 2021 by DL126

[theTastyCat]

Well this is all awesome information - thanks all!  I hadn't thought about daytime squirrel hunting with a thermal - great idea.  Animals have an incredible ability to camouflage, but they also tend to know when they're hidden - or at least when they think they are.  I can see how thermal even in the day would be great.

I'm going to pull the trigger on a high-quality scanner to get me into the thermal realm - at the very least it will be great for scouting, seeing where animals are and when, etc.  Next up will be a thermal scope - and perhaps by then we'll be hunting coyote at night!!

Sure appreciate it, all!!  Can't wait to jump in.

[Alleycat72]

I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a Flir breach. They just have bad customer service. 

[DL126]

Considering squirrel hunting, it's worth mentioning here ...

Once ambient temps get up to +/- 50*, using thermal to look up into trees can be quite tricky especially if it's a clear sky w/ bright sunlight.
My scope will have a better defined image than the scanner will. (The scope was 2x the price)
But even it sometimes has problems.

The scanner sometimes simply isn't worth a crap for looking up.

In my experience, thermal just works better in colder temps. Period

Side notes ....
Thermal suffers in high humidity. (Water in the air)
It won't work at all if rain is heavy enough.
And it won't work at all thru glass.

 

ETA ...
One of my favorite thermal stories to tell ...
The dog treed once and we could find no sign of a squirrel anywhere.
Then I walked around to the other side of the tree and saw that it had a split in it that was maybe 3" wide and 20' tall running up to the first fork in that tree.
I looked into the split with thermal and could see the tree rat about half way down the trunk.
I'd shoot just below him and he'd move up a little each time.
Eventually I ran him out the top and we got him once he exited.

Never woulda found him w/o thermal.

Edited August 31, 2021 by DL126

[Sniper23]

I have a Flir Breach simply because it was too good of a trade offer to pass up. I’ve been working so much that I haven’t even had a chance to use it. The Breach is my first entry into  thermal. Hopefully after I’ve done some more research I’ll figure out which thermal scope I should buy. 
 

That’s some really good information from both DL126 and Alleycat72. 

[Alleycat72]

2 hours ago, Sniper23 said:

I have a Flir Breach simply because it was too good of a trade offer to pass up. I’ve been working so much that I haven’t even had a chance to use it. The Breach is my first entry into  thermal. Hopefully after I’ve done some more research I’ll figure out which thermal scope I should buy. 
 

That’s some really good information from both DL126 and Alleycat72. 

The scope you should get really depends on what you're hunting and how you're hunting. I do a lot of hog hunting. Lots of shooting at running targets so I run a 35mm scope. Lots of field of view and a little bit of magnification. 18-25mm are good for thick woods or in rooms. Very little magnification. The 50-60mm have a bit of magnification. They are good for what you would consider typical day time shots. The singal shot at 300 yards at a critter. They all overlap a bit. I've made shots fome 1 foot to 350ish with my 35mm scopes and my buddy shoots running pigs with a 50mm. He starts having trouble inside 30 yards. 

This applies for all makes and models.

[Sniper23]

Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to hunt in over 3 years. Rugby has kept me very occupied for the past few years. It still does, just not as busy.  However, I'm looking to get back hunting this fall. I 've never been hog hunting but that's something I've want to do for a while now. That was why I couldn't pass up the good trade offer for the Breach. I figured I start playing around with it while trying to figure out scope options.

[JimFromTN]

One thing to remember when you buy a thermal is that with each increase in magnification  you cut the resolution in half so I doubt most people ever crank up the magnification much past the first increase in magnification on a 320 resolution.   I have a bering optics hogster 25mm with 384 resolution.  I keep it on the lowest power.  Just jumping one level of magnification, the animals just turn into blobs.  I am looking into the AGM rattler TC35-384 clip on.  Just waiting for more reviews.