18-20 year olds and handguns

[OldIronFan]

3 hours ago, xsubsailor said:

 Sounds like you are in favor of the old "blanket" policy that many levels of government and companies use. Take away the rights of the deserving because of the behavior of the non-deserving. 

 As for the post high school education, it might come as a surprise to you that many kids don't have that choice or luxury. Many have to work to provide for themselves because the family can't cover everyone's needs or the extra "nice" things that they would like to be able to get.  I'm not talking about the drug dealers either, but the ones that work regular hours at businesses. 

 As far as being irresponsible, we've had that group for as long as I can remember, but in the past they were held accountable as individuals not dictating a rule change for everyone.

  

Sounds like you are speaking from the frame of reference of your youth and a period that we no longer enjoy. A time when high school and in some cases even less was enough, in combination with responsible parenting, to form an individual with a base level of knowledge and competence for a majority of kids. That no longer is the case. 

The issue is there is no longer a "group" or percentage of kids coming out of high lacking basic skills it is the majority of them. Those competent and mature 18 year-olds coming out of high school are  the rare exception not the rule. 

As far as continued education it obviously would not work with our current system. There would have to be some significant changes to make those type of proposed requirements work. Apprenticeships would have to be paid positions. Trade school education would have to be subsidized for those in need and made flexible enough to allow a working person to complete the program. In Tennessee community college costs can be completely subsidized if a high school student has a sufficient GPA. It can work if we as a society want it to work. 

It is not entirely about luxury. No one paid for my education or my rent. I left home at 18 enrolled full time in a community college and worked full time. I was working 30+ hours a week my senior year in high school and went to 40+ hours a week after graduation. I went on to a 4 year college and was still working full time. I went back to school in my 30's to advance my career and continued working full time all while still paying my mortgage and putting food on the table. My father obtained two bachelors degrees while serving on active duty in the military and raising a family. The military covered the cost on one of those, the other he paid for out of pocket on an E8 salary. My mother obtained a degree while working part time and raising a family. It is entirely possible to obtain education and work at the same time. it is entirely possible to obtain additional education with limited resources and family support. 

[gregintenn]

4 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Ain't nothing wrong with the S&W 915. It was simply the less fancy, no frills, economy version of S&W 3rd Generation pistols. IMHO. S&W make excellent semi-auto pistols which for some unknown reason have always been highly under rated. 

My thoughts as well. I have an older version, model 39, and love it as well.

[Garufa]

10 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Most folks don't remember, but back in the early 70s Tennessee did lower the drinking age to 18.  However, it didn't last long as DUIs and DUI deaths skyrocketed.  Only a couple of years later it was changed back to 21.  I was relieved that they did.  I knew all to well how stupid drunk 18 year olds can get cuase I was one of 'em. 

Most states did lower the drinking age around that time.  On the premise of that of one is old enough to be drafted and go to war, they are old enough to drink.  Well, like you said, DUI deaths skyrocketed.

 

[Grayfox54]

If y'all wanna start in on the education system in this country, bear in mind that what we are seeing today is the result of at least three, maybe four, generations of a liberal run educational system in this country. Its the often mentioned "dumbing down of America". I won't go too far into it in this thread, but I will say that today's high school graduates are in no way properly prepared to face adult life. 

[bobsguns]

4 hours ago, gregintenn said:

What do you mean by that?

It's a joke. Lighten up.   

915's aren't considered upper tier guns, never mind top tier. That's where the joke was, or at least it was supposed to be. 

[bobsguns]

4 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Ain't nothing wrong with the S&W 915. It was simply the less fancy, no frills, economy version of S&W 3rd Generation pistols. IMHO. S&W make excellent semi-auto pistols which for some unknown reason have always been highly under rated. 

Uhmmmm, no. There's a bunch of reasons the 3rd gen Smith pistols don't get any respect. The biggies were/are their Ruger-like triggers & Ruger-like accuracy. I was working Specialty Arms in LaVergne in the early 1990s when all these Smiths were rolling out. They were supposed to be competitors to Glocks but aside from price, they fell way, way short. And I am by no means a Glock guy, I've sold every one I've ever bought (six).

You know what the 915 or 908 would bring in on trade at a gun shop? About $150, if it's an expensive gun getting purchased, about $175. Aside from the 10mm models, none of the 3rd gen Smiths bring diddly squat on the used market. Very similar to buying a Ruger P-85 or P-90, IOW. 

Until their M&P line, Smith never really sold a lot of their center fire pistols. And the Shield is carrying that line by a huge, huge margin. Everything else is still bringing up the rear in the race with their competitors with the exception of Ruger. 

Accuracy in the 908/915 was average at best. Most knowledgeable shooters don't like "average at best" in their gun(s). I know *I* don't. That alone is a huge reason I won't buy cheap guns. A lack of a decent trigger (or the ability to fix it) also killed the 3rd gen series. Right around then was when Beretta got the 92 series going really well & their triggers got 100% better with nothing more than $20 worth of springs the average Joe could replace. Beretta + Glock + H&K = the death of the Smith 3rd gen. No one wanted them when 2x the gun could be had for not much more $$$.

The buying market almost always is correct in deciding on which guns are worth having around & which are not. Oh, sure, there's going to be exceptions here & there. Personally, I thought the .41 mag would've done better but that's caliber more than a gun brand or series. When working gun shows, I've told a million sellers "a gun is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it." Doesn't mean squat what it cost brand new. Certainly doesn't mean what gee gaws the owner added to the gun (sights, grips, whatever). At the end of the day, a 908/915 is going to sell for around $250 at a gun shop. And it's going to sit on the shelf for a long, long, time before it sells to someone looking for a cheap gun, not because someone thinks it's an "under rated gun". 

I would also have made the same joke about the son not being the favorite even if he had been gifted a Glock.  

Edited September 17, 2021 by bobsguns

[bobsguns]

4 hours ago, gregintenn said:

My thoughts as well. I have an older version, model 39, and love it as well.

There's solid reasons the 39/59 series bring more on the used market than the 3rd gen models do. 

[bobsguns]

4 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

If y'all wanna start in on the education system in this country, bear in mind that what we are seeing today is the result of at least three, maybe four, generations of a liberal run educational system in this country. Its the often mentioned "dumbing down of America". I won't go too far into it in this thread, but I will say that today's high school graduates are in no way properly prepared to face adult life. 

All absolutely right on the money. 

 

[hipower]

5 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

If y'all wanna start in on the education system in this country, bear in mind that what we are seeing today is the result of at least three, maybe four, generations of a liberal run educational system in this country. Its the often mentioned "dumbing down of America". I won't go too far into it in this thread, but I will say that today's high school graduates are in no way properly prepared to face adult life. 

Hell...to be honest, I wasn't prepared when I graduated high school. It's really scary to see what most of the kids getting out today are like.

[derf]

3 hours ago, bobsguns said:

It's a joke. Lighten up.   

915's aren't considered upper tier guns, never mind top tier. That's where the joke was, or at least it was supposed to be. 

A simple happy birthday would have sufficed. To him and more so to his son, this may be a gun that’s been his family for a while and the young man may have been waiting a while to get it. I don’t think the issue was that you busted on the gun but that you kinda questioned what he was giving his son. I hope you understand  that. 
 

If I told you my son was turning 18 and I was giving him a high point, could be the same issue. Hell I offered a happy birthday and a box of bullets for the young man. 
 

I didn’t work at a gun shop, I owned one. I’m gonna rummage through my box of old mags and if I have any I’m gonna make sure he gets them. 
 

“Happy Birthday “ 

[Darrell]

14 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

Most folks don't remember, but back in the early 70s Tennessee did lower the drinking age to 18. 

I was a young Jarhead going to "A" school in Millington in 75 and was happily surprised I could legally spend all my money at the titty bars in Memphis. I think the 18 yo drinking law was good for the bar owners, but probably not for anyone else. At least I got that out of my system early.

[Darrell]

8 hours ago, hipower said:

Hell...to be honest, I wasn't prepared when I graduated high school. It's really scary to see what most of the kids getting out today are like.

I graduated at 17 and surely wasn't ready for the world. But I WAS ready for the Marine Corps and the four years I spent there did a pretty good job of knocking some sense into me and giving me a skill set that served me very well for the rest of my life. I know the military isn't for everyone, but for me it was a perfect transition from boy to man.

[Darrell]

19 hours ago, xsubsailor said:

Sounds like you are in favor of the old "blanket" policy that many levels of government and companies use. Take away the rights of the deserving because of the behavior of the non-deserving. 

Every society sets some age or rite of passage to become an adult. In a family or a small tribe it's pretty easy to determine such things on an individual basis, assuming the people making the determination are up to the task. In a society of 300 million we have to have some "blanket" polices to make those calls. 

[No_0ne]

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

― Socrates

[gregintenn]

11 hours ago, bobsguns said:

Uhmmmm, no. There's a bunch of reasons the 3rd gen Smith pistols don't get any respect. The biggies were/are their Ruger-like triggers & Ruger-like accuracy. I was working Specialty Arms in LaVergne in the early 1990s when all these Smiths were rolling out. They were supposed to be competitors to Glocks but aside from price, they fell way, way short. And I am by no means a Glock guy, I've sold every one I've ever bought (six).

You know what the 915 or 908 would bring in on trade at a gun shop? About $150, if it's an expensive gun getting purchased, about $175. Aside from the 10mm models, none of the 3rd gen Smiths bring diddly squat on the used market. Very similar to buying a Ruger P-85 or P-90, IOW. 

Until their M&P line, Smith never really sold a lot of their center fire pistols. And the Shield is carrying that line by a huge, huge margin. Everything else is still bringing up the rear in the race with their competitors with the exception of Ruger. 

Accuracy in the 908/915 was average at best. Most knowledgeable shooters don't like "average at best" in their gun(s). I know *I* don't. That alone is a huge reason I won't buy cheap guns. A lack of a decent trigger (or the ability to fix it) also killed the 3rd gen series. Right around then was when Beretta got the 92 series going really well & their triggers got 100% better with nothing more than $20 worth of springs the average Joe could replace. Beretta + Glock + H&K = the death of the Smith 3rd gen. No one wanted them when 2x the gun could be had for not much more $$$.

The buying market almost always is correct in deciding on which guns are worth having around & which are not. Oh, sure, there's going to be exceptions here & there. Personally, I thought the .41 mag would've done better but that's caliber more than a gun brand or series. When working gun shows, I've told a million sellers "a gun is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it." Doesn't mean squat what it cost brand new. Certainly doesn't mean what gee gaws the owner added to the gun (sights, grips, whatever). At the end of the day, a 908/915 is going to sell for around $250 at a gun shop. And it's going to sit on the shelf for a long, long, time before it sells to someone looking for a cheap gun, not because someone thinks it's an "under rated gun". 

I would also have made the same joke about the son not being the favorite even if he had been gifted a Glock.  

I'll buy all the $150-$250 Model 915 Smiths you can come up with.

[bobsguns]

7 hours ago, derf said:

A simple happy birthday would have sufficed.

Wouldn't a sense of humor also sufficed?

[bobsguns]

15 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I'll buy all the $150-$250 Model 915 Smiths you can come up with.

Apparently you didn't read too closely.

The $150-175 is what the buyer gets from the dealer on trade-in, NOT the retail price. Huge difference.

[OldIronFan]

3 hours ago, Darrell said:

I was a young Jarhead going to "A" school in Millington in 75 and was happily surprised I could legally spend all my money at the titty bars in Memphis. I think the 18 yo drinking law was good for the bar owners, but probably not for anyone else. At least I got that out of my system early.

My dad may have been one of your instructors.  He taught in Millington twice after he got back from Vietnam. 

Good thing you never got caught at The Brass Rail. That place was a real dive and pretty constant source of trouble for the MP's and local police.  

That town has really changed. I was back a couple of weeks ago visiting the folks.  

 

 

[gregintenn]

2 hours ago, bobsguns said:

Apparently you didn't read too closely.

The $150-175 is what the buyer gets from the dealer on trade-in, NOT the retail price. Huge difference.

You also said it would sell at a gunshop for$250. If you run across any, I’d sure like to know about them.

[bobsguns]

5 hours ago, OldIronFan said:

That town has really changed. I was back a couple of weeks ago visiting the folks. 

 

 

 

There was a horrific murder of a female Marine (WM) there about 20 years ago or so. It was a sick, twisted murder, ghastly. I believe they convicted the guy who did it. 

[bobsguns]

4 hours ago, gregintenn said:

You also said it would sell at a gunshop for$250. If you run across any, I’d sure like to know about them.

As soon as I see one, you'll be the first to know.   

[OldIronFan]

On 9/17/2021 at 3:41 PM, bobsguns said:

 

There was a horrific murder of a female Marine (WM) there about 20 years ago or so. It was a sick, twisted murder, ghastly. I believe they convicted the guy who did it. 

Suzanne Marie Collins, it was actually 36 years ago.  My family was already shipped out to dad's next duty station, NAS Barber's Point. We heard about it though since one of dad's fellow instructors was teaching one of her avionics classes. We returned to Millington a year or two afterward. 

[Worriedman]

On 9/16/2021 at 9:34 AM, OldIronFan said:

I lean the direction of 21 and up as well. 

21 to purchase alcohol, tabacco products, and firearms. 
21 to be drafted or join the military. 

Require post high school education in the form of;
a) A Bachelors (4 year) program at a university.
b) An Associates (2 year) program at a community college.
c) A 1600 ~2000 hour certificate based program at a trade school or technical school (think welding, automotive, HVAC, ect).
d) An approved 2 year apprenticeship program in a trade or field.

If they make it to 21 without completing one of the above, god help em

I have not seen a kid coming out of high school in more than a decade that I would hire and turn loose in any capacity/roll at my employer. Not without a good bit of further training and development anyway. I barely trust them to have a drivers license and a car much less a bottle of bourbon and a handgun. 

And yet, it is illegal for anyone to use pot, drive without insurance, do coke or heroine...

Just because there is some statute against something, does not make it Constitutional or enforceable.