18-20 year olds and handguns

[xsubsailor]

A three-judge panel for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit ruled Tuesday that the federal ban against 18-20-year-olds buying handguns is unconstitutional.

 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/07/13/federal-appeals-court-handgun-purchase-ban-for-18-20-year-olds-unconstitutional/

[gregintenn]

Good deal.

[Frog4aday]

That's great news. I never did understand the restriction but like many (most?) gun laws, there wasn't any logic behind it.

[joe4vol]

Good news that doesn’t really change much. Another circuit court will put in an injunction.  The Supreme Court needs to make some rulings. 

[Pain103]

We are in the 6th district that ruling will have no effect here until SCOTUS makes a ruling. 

[bobsguns]

Personally, I was ok leaving it at 21 for handguns. Yes, I know that runs against the norm in most circles. 

But current 18-20 year olds can't change a tire nor drive a stick shift (mostly). Most probably couldn't name their own Governor, IMO. Couple that with some alcohol floating around a group & you've got a recipe for disaster, IMO. 

[Frog4aday]

I do understand where you are coming from @bobsguns. Some of these young 'adults' probably couldn't be trusted with a can opener. But my take on it has always been that if you are "old enough" to be drafted & handed an M-16 & told to go kill enemies of the USA, you should also be old enough to buy a beer & a handgun (well, probably not at the same time, but you get the gist.)

Either we raise the age a person can be indentured to Uncle Sam to age 21 or we start treating 18 y/o "adults" as true and actual adults.

Personally, I found it inconsistent with logic that @ age 18, 19, & 20, I would be handed a fully auto-machine gun (M-16 or M-60) w/bunches of ammo & told to go guard the nukes night after night, but I couldn't walk into Bob's Gun Emporium & buy that S&W 686 I'd been wanting for years.

And having a beer with the guys after work? Nope, I couldn't be trusted by my own country or state to "handle" that either. But I was volun-told to secure the most dangerous weapons on the planet. Hmmm...something always seemed off with that inconsistency. Just putting my thoughts out there.

For what it's worth 10 USC Ch. 12: THE MILITIA defines age 17 as the point a young man is ready to take part in defense of his community & nation (excerpt below):

§246. Militia: composition and classes;
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

[Johnny reb]

On 7/13/2021 at 5:26 PM, xsubsailor said:

A three-judge panel for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit ruled Tuesday that the federal ban against 18-20-year-olds buying handguns is unconstitutional.

 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/07/13/federal-appeals-court-handgun-purchase-ban-for-18-20-year-olds-unconstitutional/

Its interesting though nothing will come of it.  I agree with frog4aday if you are legally considered an adult and are allowed to vote and join the millitary you should be allowed to purchase a pistol and or alcohol. I may be alone in my thinking but I think alot of the alcohol related problems with 18-20 yr olds is caused by having to sneak around and trying to avoid the police. 

[Darrell]

On 8/23/2021 at 9:07 AM, bobsguns said:

Personally, I was ok leaving it at 21 for handguns. Yes, I know that runs against the norm in most circles. 

 

On 8/26/2021 at 8:47 AM, Frog4aday said:

Either we raise the age a person can be indentured to Uncle Sam to age 21 or we start treating 18 y/o "adults" as true and actual adults.

 

I'm with you, Bob, with the caveat that voting and draft age should both probably be 21 as well. I know there are plenty of folks who are thoughtful and mature at 18, and plenty who are not at 21, but when I think back to my own behavior at 18-20 it gives me pause. And I was one of those carrying an M16 in the Corps (at least at the rifle range).  I was too irresponsible to be driving at 16, too, though through some miracle neither I nor anyone else paid a price for it. 

I think Mr. Frog is right, so long as 18 is legally an adult, then 18 y/o's should have all adult rights. But I'm not convinced many 18 y/o's really are "adult". And in a lot of jurisdictions there has been debate about whether to give 16 y/o's the vote.....

[OldIronFan]

I lean the direction of 21 and up as well. 

21 to purchase alcohol, tabacco products, and firearms. 
21 to be drafted or join the military. 

Require post high school education in the form of;
a) A Bachelors (4 year) program at a university.
b) An Associates (2 year) program at a community college.
c) A 1600 ~2000 hour certificate based program at a trade school or technical school (think welding, automotive, HVAC, ect).
d) An approved 2 year apprenticeship program in a trade or field.

If they make it to 21 without completing one of the above, god help em

I have not seen a kid coming out of high school in more than a decade that I would hire and turn loose in any capacity/roll at my employer. Not without a good bit of further training and development anyway. I barely trust them to have a drivers license and a car much less a bottle of bourbon and a handgun. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by OldIronFan

[xsubsailor]

55 minutes ago, OldIronFan said:

I lean the direction of 21 and up as well. 

21 to purchase alcohol, tabacco products, and firearms. 
21 to be drafted or join the military. 

Require post high school education in the form of;
a) A Bachelors (4 year) program at a university.
b) An Associates (2 year) program at a community college.
c) A 1600 ~2000 hour certificate based program at a trade school or technical school (think welding, automotive, HVAC, ect).
d) An approved 2 year apprenticeship program in a trade or field.

If they make it to 21 without completing once of the above, god help em

I have not seen a kid coming out of high school in more than a decade that I would hire and turn loose in any capacity/roll at my employer. Not without a good bit of further training and development anyway. I barely trust them to have a drivers license and a car much less a bottle of bourbon and a handgun. 

 Sounds like you are in favor of the old "blanket" policy that many levels of government and companies use. Take away the rights of the deserving because of the behavior of the non-deserving. 

 As for the post high school education, it might come as a surprise to you that many kids don't have that choice or luxury. Many have to work to provide for themselves because the family can't cover everyone's needs or the extra "nice" things that they would like to be able to get.  I'm not talking about the drug dealers either, but the ones that work regular hours at businesses. 

 As far as being irresponsible, we've had that group for as long as I can remember, but in the past they were held accountable as individuals not dictating a rule change for everyone.

  

[gregintenn]

My younger son turns 18 on Saturday. He’s getting a Smith and Wesson 915 for a present. I guess that explains my position on this matter.

[derf]

21 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

My younger son turns 18 on Saturday. He’s getting a Smith and Wesson 915 for a present. I guess that explains my position on this matter.

Happy birthday young “Man”. Let me know if he needs any ammo for that. I left for boot camp at 17. At 21 I had a home mortgage, car note, two kids and two jobs. We did what was needed to get by. We weren’t coddled by our parents. If you can die for your country at 18 you damn sure should have the right to buy whatever firearm you want. If a gun is needed to commit crimes, you can be sure criminals will have them. If you feel an 18 year old is not an adult, it’s time they grow up and are aloud to grow a pair. 

[gregintenn]

Just now, derf said:

Happy birthday young “Man”. Let me know if he needs any ammo for that. I left for boot camp at 17. At 21 I had a home mortgage, car note, two kids and two jobs. We did what was needed to get by. We weren’t coddled by our parents. If you can die for your country at 18 you damn sure should have the right to buy whatever firearm you want. If a gun is needed to commit crimes, you can be sure criminals will have them. If you feel an 18 year old is not an adult, it’s time they grow up and are aloud to grow a pair. 

Thanks. Ol dad had the ammo situation covered.

[bobsguns]

5 hours ago, OldIronFan said:

I have not seen a kid coming out of high school in more than a decade that I would hire and turn loose in any capacity/roll at my employer. Not without a good bit of further training and development anyway. I barely trust them to have a drivers license and a car much less a bottle of bourbon and a handgun. 

Get the hell outta here with your logic & common sense.   

[bobsguns]

4 hours ago, gregintenn said:

My younger son turns 18 on Saturday. He’s getting a Smith and Wesson 915 for a present. I guess that explains my position on this matter.

A 915? Is he your least favorite? He must be. 

[bobsguns]

4 hours ago, xsubsailor said:

 As for the post high school education, it might come as a surprise to you that many kids don't have that choice or luxury. Many have to work to provide for themselves because the family can't cover everyone's needs or the extra "nice" things that they would like to be able to get.  I'm not talking about the drug dealers either, but the ones that work regular hours at businesses.  

 

That must explain all the hundreds of "help wanted" signs I see.......................   

[bobsguns]

3 hours ago, derf said:

I left for boot camp at 17. At 21 I had a home mortgage, car note, two kids and two jobs. We did what was needed to get by. We weren’t coddled by our parents. If you can die for your country at 18 you damn sure should have the right to buy whatever firearm you want. If you feel an 18 year old is not an adult, it’s time they grow up and are aloud to grow a pair. 

 

I was a Marine when I was 17. Couldn't buy beer, see a "R" rated movie, buy any sort of firearm or sign a contract. Yet I was a full-fledged, certified 0331, a Marine machine gunner. 

Clearly you've not spent much time with today's youth? Want to give one of them a nervous breakdown? Take away their GD cell phone. Or put them in a stick shift & tell them to pull it around back. In today's schools everyone's a winner, everyone passes & everyone IS "special". It's not the kids fault, it's liberal society that has caused this. Another reason private schools have exploded since the early 1970s.

I've had the "pleasure" of working with kids right out of high school. Like the other poster, I wouldn't trust 99% of them to scrub my toilet. No work ethic, no work experience (due to not working during school years, probably because momma was too scared to let them) & wholly lacking the tiniest bit of common freaking sense. Not that they can't learn these things, they can. But sadly a whole LOT of them seem to not want to learn them, maybe 10% of the ones I worked with. Honestly, the best ones I worked with had a sports background. They knew what it meant to put in effort in order to achieve a result. The others weren't worth wet TP.

My .o2

[gregintenn]

28 minutes ago, bobsguns said:

A 915? Is he your least favorite? He must be. 

What do you mean by that?

[No_0ne]

On 8/26/2021 at 8:47 AM, Frog4aday said:

I do understand where you are coming from @bobsguns. Some of these young 'adults' probably couldn't be trusted with a can opener. But my take on it has always been that if you are "old enough" to be drafted & handed an M-16 & told to go kill enemies of the USA, you should also be old enough to buy a beer & a handgun (well, probably not at the same time, but you get the gist.)

Either we raise the age a person can be indentured to Uncle Sam to age 21 or we start treating 18 y/o "adults" as true and actual adults.

Personally, I found it inconsistent with logic that @ age 18, 19, & 20, I would be handed a fully auto-machine gun (M-16 or M-60) w/bunches of ammo & told to go guard the nukes night after night, but I couldn't walk into Bob's Gun Emporium & buy that S&W 686 I'd been wanting for years.

And having a beer with the guys after work? Nope, I couldn't be trusted by my own country or state to "handle" that either. But I was volun-told to secure the most dangerous weapons on the planet. Hmmm...something always seemed off with that inconsistency. Just putting my thoughts out there.

For what it's worth 10 USC Ch. 12: THE MILITIA defines age 17 as the point a young man is ready to take part in defense of his community & nation (excerpt below):

§246. Militia: composition and classes;
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

It's interesting how we have come almost full circle with this argument.  I can remember similar arguments being made to lower the drinking age and the age to vote in Federal elections back in the late 60's and early 70's, i.e. if we can send these guys off to Vietnam we ought to give them the right to vote and have a drink.  A few years later "safety" concerns led to the drinking age being raised back to 21 for virtually all states, although we have (so far) kept the voting age at 18.  I really don't have a strong opinion one way or another, but it is interesting to see how the thought process has evolved over the years ...

[No_0ne]

1 minute ago, gregintenn said:

What do you mean by that?

I don't think he thinks much of the 915 ...

[gregintenn]

1 minute ago, No_0ne said:

I don't think he thinks much of the 915 ...

I like it, but what do I know?

[No_0ne]

4 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I like it, but what do I know?

[Grayfox54]

Most folks don't remember, but back in the early 70s Tennessee did lower the drinking age to 18.  However, it didn't last long as DUIs and DUI deaths skyrocketed.  Only a couple of years later it was changed back to 21.  I was relieved that they did.  I knew all to well how stupid drunk 18 year olds can get cuase I was one of 'em. 

[Grayfox54]

Ain't nothing wrong with the S&W 915. It was simply the less fancy, no frills, economy version of S&W 3rd Generation pistols. IMHO. S&W make excellent semi-auto pistols which for some unknown reason have always been highly under rated.